Hoosier vs. Toyo

[rtosborne]

Anyone run Road Atlanta on both Hoosier and Toyo. Just curious of a first hand comparison of differences in laptimes on a HC level of prep.

 

Other tracks with a 1:45 ish lap would be interesting too.

 

Thanks.

[bsytracklife]

Just got my comp licence, so still debating on what class to run myself (PT / HC), the Hoosier vs having to run Ra1's is a decision that I have been thinking about.

I run TT and have used Ra1's, R6's, A6's and Z214 c71's at Road Atlanta. I also presently hold the TTC track record 138.82 in my 01 S2000.

Me and a few other drivers that all run together have used these tires and concluded:

Ra1's are the best bang for the tire, they run forever, take the abuse and stay consistent until they cord. I have run low 140's with RA1's. But, the Hoosiers are better, Ive ran a 138.9 with R6's and got the 138.82 with A6's and I know I can go faster with the A6's still.

Hope the info helps

[miwifri]

Just got my comp licence, so still debating on what class to run myself (PT / HC), the Hoosier vs having to run Ra1's is a decision that I have been thinking about.

I run TT and have used Ra1's, R6's, A6's and Z214 c71's at Road Atlanta. I also presently hold the TTC track record 138.82 in my 01 S2000.

Me and a few other drivers that all run together have used these tires and concluded:

Ra1's are the best bang for the tire, they run forever, take the abuse and stay consistent until they cord. I have run low 140's with RA1's. But, the Hoosiers are better, Ive ran a 138.9 with R6's and got the 138.82 with A6's and I know I can go faster with the A6's still.

Hope the info helps

 

Being in Honda challenge, I'm glad to hear that the Toyo is the best bang for the buck. Sounds like a good reason for you to be in Honda challenge too!

 

Mike Fries

NASA NE

HC S2000

[zul8r]

yea!! Honda Challenge, we need more drivers, and that equals more contingency

[speedengineer]

Hey Brian, you planning on running Nationals in TTC? You could always consider running H1 at the same time, prep level isn't too different really. That'd make for at least least 3 of us H1 S2k's, as I am likely going to do just that.

[miwifri]

Hey Brian, you planning on running Nationals in TTC? You could always consider running H1 at the same time, prep level isn't too different really. That'd make for at least least 3 of us H1 S2k's, as I am likely going to do just that.

 

 

Mike Fries

NASA NE

HC S2000

[Rob O]

I've been trying to get Brian over into H1.....I think he would do really well there. I'm having a blast now, even finishing last! I may end up going to Nationals too for the experience as Miller for 2013-14 will be too far.

[bsytracklife]

Hey Brian, you planning on running Nationals in TTC? You could always consider running H1 at the same time, prep level isn't too different really. That'd make for at least least 3 of us H1 S2k's, as I am likely going to do just that.

 

Yes I am wanting to make it to nationals this year, my ultimate goal would be to run TTC, PTC, and HC. H1 prep is so far off from the TT/PT rules with the Weight and tire differences. I could actually run H2 easily if it just wasnt for the factory spring requirement. My weights, prep and tire sizes are closer to H2 rules.

Even if I can turn some fast laps, when you get to nationals, everyone can turn fast laps. Idealistically you want your car to be topped out in whatever class your going to run in, and the only way I see to get close for HC is lighten my car as much as I can, and run balast I can remove to run HC, and then different tire setup just for that class, and still be under prepped.

 

*for now, whatever class that has the most competition and contingency... Im in. I need some Nissan Z badges.

[speedengineer]

Yes I am wanting to make it to nationals this year, my ultimate goal would be to run TTC, PTC, and HC. H1 prep is so far off from the TT/PT rules with the Weight and tire differences. I could actually run H2 easily if it just wasnt for the factory spring requirement. My weights, prep and tire sizes are closer to H2 rules.

Even if I can turn some fast laps, when you get to nationals, everyone can turn fast laps. Idealistically you want your car to be topped out in whatever class your going to run in, and the only way I see to get close for HC is lighten my car as much as I can, and run balast I can remove to run HC, and then different tire setup just for that class, and still be under prepped.

 

*for now, whatever class that has the most competition and contingency... Im in. I need some Nissan Z badges.

 

You'd have your hands full if you do TT, PT, and HC! Yes, the spring rule is the killer for H2. That, and we'd have to go buy a CR wing. And running tiny little tires for a 40 minute race at 2900 lbs might mean the tires fall off pretty quick, not sure. You have an AP1? If so I could see you not wanting to run H1 since 2525 lbs would be very tough to get down to.

 

For my my car, transitioning from TTC to H1 will be as simple as switching wheels and taking the ballast out. Doubt I'll run the little 1.5" splitter they let you use. The only drawback to making my car that easy to switch is that in TTC I'll have to take 3 points for intake and exhaust, meaning I'll have to run R6 instead of A6. But the extra power will probably balance out the slower tire. We will see.

 

 

To the OP, sorry we took over the thread... If you call RA1 and NT01 about the same tire, I figure that the 225 A6 is perhaps around 1 second a lap faster than 255 NT01 at a typical track. That's kind of a guess though, it has been a while since I've run the NT01.

[miwifri]

Jason, Brian and Rob,

With the three of you, me and John Oldt there could be five S2000s in the H1 race at nationals! I will have an H2 S2000 finished soon but if you guys were all in H1, I would definitely bring my H1 car. I hope you guys make it.

 

Mike Fries

NASA NE

HC S2000

[Rob O]

I don't see why we cannot have a field of 8-10 H1 S2000's this year. I think there was 5 last year but 2 went H2. There is one more in the southeast that could make it if he gets a motor put in so I hope we can bring 3 up north Mid Ohio. There is another in DC recently caged but not sure it he plans on w2w.

[GI8U2racing]

Anyone run Road Atlanta on both Hoosier and Toyo. Just curious of a first hand comparison of differences in laptimes on a HC level of prep.

 

Other tracks with a 1:45 ish lap would be interesting too.

I can say that on tracks with 1:15-1:30, I dropped about 1.0-2.0 sec/lap with the Hoosiers. The tighter the track, the more it will help. It was fun running Hoosiers, but I am glad to get more than a weekend (at most) out of tires again. It also took more planning and logistics to make sure you had good tires scrubbed in, on the right wheels, etc since you were constantly going through them. It was a pain, but I think we all learned a lot.

[H4CRXSi]

Don't speak too fast, J Baker, I've heard that the latest batches of RA-1's are only lasting 1 weekend. Some of the local "fast" SM guys who used to get them shaved to 3/32 and could never cord them are now cording them in 1 weekend. Heard something but the "magic additive" that they used to put in them to make them last so long is no longer environmentally safe so they don't put the additive in there anymore.

 

YMMV, but don't be surprised!

 

Regards,

 

Sam

[speedengineer]

I'm actually planning to order my very first set of RA-1's here in a few days. Perhaps some people here can help me make a couple of decisions?

 

a) What widths do most of the H1 cars run? 255? I don't think I want to bother trying to make 275 fit...

b) Regarding longevity, wear, and grip, from talking to spec e30 guys it sounds like it takes 3-4 heat cycles for the new tires to become fast. But they're on skinny tires for their weight. Do you think a similar weight S2000 on wider toyo's would suffer from the same issues.

c) I don't need the tires to be competitive for my first several events as I'll have no competitors to race against in my region, and I'll be using them as practice tires at track days and for time trials. So, I was considering not having them shaven. On a wider tire like a 255 will I have to worry about them chunking, or will they be ok? I'm mostly looking to get some life out of them.

d) Furthermore, if I don't shave them (or shave them very much), will they be heat cycled out by the time they get down to 3/32nds and no longer be fast enough to race competitively with?

 

I've really got no experience with these tires, so any insight anyone can offer is greatly appreciated! I'll also report back later on the lap time difference between these ra-1's and my hoosier A6's.

[kbrew8991]

shave them for dry use, go with 4/32nds if you're not looking to be super competitive right off the bat

[Karl]

Don't speak too fast, J Baker, I've heard that the latest batches of RA-1's are only lasting 1 weekend. Some of the local "fast" SM guys who used to get them shaved to 3/32 and could never cord them are now cording them in 1 weekend. Heard something but the "magic additive" that they used to put in them to make them last so long is no longer environmentally safe so they don't put the additive in there anymore.

 

YMMV, but don't be surprised!

 

Regards,

 

Sam

 

I have three full days on a new build set, fronts stayed on the front, swapped side to side. They were shaved to 4.5, and now probably have ~2/32 left. The rears look almost like new shaved tires.

[miwifri]

I'm actually planning to order my very first set of RA-1's here in a few days. Perhaps some people here can help me make a couple of decisions?

 

a) What widths do most of the H1 cars run? 255? I don't think I want to bother trying to make 275 fit...

b) Regarding longevity, wear, and grip, from talking to spec e30 guys it sounds like it takes 3-4 heat cycles for the new tires to become fast. But they're on skinny tires for their weight. Do you think a similar weight S2000 on wider toyo's would suffer from the same issues.

c) I don't need the tires to be competitive for my first several events as I'll have no competitors to race against in my region, and I'll be using them as practice tires at track days and for time trials. So, I was considering not having them shaven. On a wider tire like a 255 will I have to worry about them chunking, or will they be ok? I'm mostly looking to get some life out of them.

d) Furthermore, if I don't shave them (or shave them very much), will they be heat cycled out by the time they get down to 3/32nds and no longer be fast enough to race competitively with?

 

I've really got no experience with these tires, so any insight anyone can offer is greatly appreciated! I'll also report back later on the lap time difference between these ra-1's and my hoosier A6's.

 

Jason,

 

A) The two S2000's racing H1 in the Northeast and mid-Atlantic are using 255s front and rear. I also have 275s that I can use on the rear (minor changes in grip and final drive). I have also used 235s on the front with 255 rear and the steering feels a little sharper to me with this set up. A staggered set up is not as practical, however.

 

B) I don't know about how many heat cycles it takes to get to maximum grip but you can have the tires precycled. The RA1 doesn't lose grip with successive heat cycles like the Hoosier which is what is important to me. I raced on two-year-old Toyos this weekend.

 

C) I have started "rain" races on full tread tires that turned out to be dry and had no problems but that is my limited experience. I have also heard about people racing on full tread tires to save money. I don't think they are likely to chunk like a full tread Hoosier rain but I would ask Phil at Phil's Tire Service about this.

 

D) See B.

 

 

Mike Fries

NASA NE

HC S2000

[speedengineer]

Thanks for the info Mike. Is it pretty tough to fit the 275 in the s2k wheel wells, or is it not an issue? My car is very low...and rpf1's with a 45 offset doesn't help either.

[miwifri]

Thanks for the info Mike. Is it pretty tough to fit the 275 in the s2k wheel wells, or is it not an issue? My car is very low...and rpf1's with a 45 offset doesn't help either.

 

 

You would have to go to a +63 offset and roll the fender to make them work in the rear.

 

Mike Fries

HC S2000

[speedracer33]

Quick question to follow up on this thread. My Civic race car is still waiting for a new motor, so I just ordered a set of RA1s for my street/track '94 Prelude. I'm planning on using them on the road too, and on track for both rain and dry, so I didn't get them shaved... so I'm hoping I don't chunk them at the track! Anyway, my question is what is the optimal hot pressure for the tires? On the Civic I run the 888s at 34 lbs hot, but I wasn't sure if the RA1s prefer more than that. Anybody have any recommendations?

 

Matt

[Karl]

225-45-15 I run around 39 hot

[GI8U2racing]

Don't speak too fast, J Baker, I've heard that the latest batches of RA-1's are only lasting 1 weekend. Some of the local "fast" SM guys who used to get them shaved to 3/32 and could never cord them are now cording them in 1 weekend. Heard something but the "magic additive" that they used to put in them to make them last so long is no longer environmentally safe so they don't put the additive in there anymore.

Don't call me J. Baker like you don't know me, Sam! But yes, you're right, my comments are based on RA-1's that we got in previous years, I'm glad to hear Karl is getting good results, we'll just have to see.

 

 

Quick question to follow up on this thread. My Civic race car is still waiting for a new motor, so I just ordered a set of RA1s for my street/track '94 Prelude. I'm planning on using them on the road too, and on track for both rain and dry, so I didn't get them shaved... so I'm hoping I don't chunk them at the track! Anyway, my question is what is the optimal hot pressure for the tires? On the Civic I run the 888s at 34 lbs hot, but I wasn't sure if the RA1s prefer more than that. Anybody have any recommendations?

36 psi hot is what I aim for. I would not run full treads on a heavy car in the dry, they will chunk if you're driving fast on them. You also need more camber for RA1's, so you'll cause premature wear on the inside of the tire tread driving it on street depending on how far you need to drive. This whole thing sounds like a less-than-optimal plan, why not finish your race car with an H2 engine and just race with us? Engines take days, not months to make.

 

And don't tell me you're building something that isn't legal for H2...again. You afraid of racing us?

[speedracer33]

36 psi hot is what I aim for. I would not run full treads on a heavy car in the dry, they will chunk if you're driving fast on them. You also need more camber for RA1's, so you'll cause premature wear on the inside of the tire tread driving it on street depending on how far you need to drive. This whole thing sounds like a less-than-optimal plan, why not finish your race car with an H2 engine and just race with us? Engines take days, not months to make.

 

And don't tell me you're building something that isn't legal for H2...again. You afraid of racing us?

 

Thanks for the advice J Baker (whoever you are)! To your point, they are going onto a 3000lb + Prelude, so they are likely to build a lot of heat. The tires should be coming in today, so I would have two weeks to find a place to shave them. I have no idea where to take them though. Assuming I can find a place, do you think taking them down to 4 is enough to prevent the chunking? To your point, they are going onto a 3000lb + Prelude, so they are likely to build a lot of heat.

 

The issue with the Civic isn't finding a new engine, it's been waiting for my mechanic to find the time to pull it apart and see how much damage the lack of a timing belt caused. He set it aside as a winter project for a snowy day, and we didn't have any of those this year. What *really* sucks is that up until very recently, he had a B20 just sitting in his shop waiting for a home, but he sold it before I blew this motor. He's started to work on it in his spare time, but he's been really busy with "real" customers, so it keeps getting pushed aside. He promised me he would get the head off in the next few days and see if the bottom end survived or not. Then I'll go from there.

 

I have to say though, ever since that wreck at Summit (Hyperfest 2010), I haven't enjoyed racing as much. I'm actually having more fun on the weekends that I'm instructing. I get more track time, don't pay entry fees, and it's completely stress-free. Not to mention I don't have to keep taking the car to the body shop!

[GI8U2racing]

Assuming I can find a place, do you think taking them down to 4 is enough to prevent the chunking? To your point, they are going onto a 3000lb + Prelude, so they are likely to build a lot of heat.

I normally get mine taken to 5/32, and that's totally fine for dry driving. Since these 1/32's numbers seem to be unmeasurable to the guys ending up doing it (aside from Phil who seems to nail it), 5/32 is where you can still see ALL of the tread pattern, but barely (about 1/32"). 4/32 is where it you lose the horizontal treads. Maybe ask Phil if he'd mount, balance, and shave your tires trackside (not sure if he can shave at the track).

 

 

The issue with the Civic isn't finding a new engine, it's been waiting for my mechanic to find the time to pull it apart and see how much damage the lack of a timing belt caused. He set it aside as a winter project for a snowy day, and we didn't have any of those this year. What *really* sucks is that up until very recently, he had a B20 just sitting in his shop waiting for a home, but he sold it before I blew this motor. He's started to work on it in his spare time, but he's been really busy with "real" customers, so it keeps getting pushed aside. He promised me he would get the head off in the next few days and see if the bottom end survived or not. Then I'll go from there.

I'm not going to name names, but I had a great guy who built engines for me previously, and this sounds similar. I'm sure he's a great guy, but it's time to move on, you can't be 2nd in life with your mechanic (or body shop), we have schedules too. I think you'll be glad you did, there are a lot of big named-guys all over the east coast, it's easy to team up with them.

 

 

I have to say though, ever since that wreck at Summit (Hyperfest 2010), I haven't enjoyed racing as much. I'm actually having more fun on the weekends that I'm instructing. I get more track time, don't pay entry fees, and it's completely stress-free. Not to mention I don't have to keep taking the car to the body shop!

I can't relate, but I can understand. I hope you join H2 sometime, I think you'd really enjoy it. If you had major damage, just throw a B16/B20/GSR (it'll be cheap) or rebuild your Type R engine to legal specs and go. You can still instruct if you want, but at least you'll have the option for H2. That's what I would do...

[Karl]

I would not run full treads on a heavy car in the dry, they will chunk if you're driving fast on them.

 

this is Matt we are talking about