realride Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 (edited) Start of 2012 season all the info you need so please read Let's all get ready for Button Willow !!!!! First off,some new Socal supplemental Racing regulations: Better be aware of those http://socal.drivenasa.com/2012SoCalSuppsv1.pdf Please note the HC 25.4.1 HONDA CHALLENGE 1) 25.4.1 - The responsibility for the decision to pass another car, and to do it safely, rests with the overtaking driver. The overtaken driver should be aware that he/she is being passed and must not impede the pass by blocking. Any overtaking driver who makes contact with another vehicle will be subject to penalties. PENALTY> Reposition behind vehicle where contact occurred during passing. Starting at Button Willow in April 2012 we will implement the national Horse power limit for H2 ONLY Refer to page 17 for the horse power limit 2012 HONDA CHALLENGE http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/Honda-Challenge.pdf You may bring a dyno sheet conform to the rules or dyno your car at button willow. The cost at the track is $85 for 3 pulls. Again this is only for so.cal not for any other region. the choice was made by so.cal racers so I do not really understand why so much issues from other region. this is not a reflection what is going on in HC in any other place than So.cal, again rules change was made from HC2 Racers that participates in most of the races in So.cal I just wanted to remind all of you guys how great of contingency programs we have at the regional level, we should be proud of Jeremy great job. Please make sure to print and fill up your Annual tech form, I'll be at the track Friday afternoon if you need tech stickers. http://www.nasaproracing.com/forms/annual_race_tech.pdf Here is a recap of the contingency we have for our regional races, makes sure to have the form with you just come to see me at the end of the weekend for signature. HPD info: http://www.nasaproracing.com/contingency/hpd_contingency_program/2012_HPD_Regional_Contingency_Info1.pdf HPD Form: http://www.nasaproracing.com/contingency/hpd_contingency_program/2012_HPD_Regional_Contingency_Claim_Form1.pdf Toyo Info: http://www.nasaproracing.com/contingency/toyo_tires/2012_Toyo_Tires_Regional_Champ_Contingency_Info.pdf Toyo Form: http://www.nasaproracing.com/contingency/toyo_tires/2012_NASA_Rebate_Award_Application-Regional_Races_v1.pdf Hawk: http://www.nasaproracing.com/contingency/hawk_contingency_program/2011_Hawk_Contingency_Program_Guidelines_Final.pdf See you at the track Benoit Pecqueur Here my cell if you need to contact, cry,bitch at me LOL 213 703 4700 Edited March 14, 2012 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leland Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Starting at Button Willow in April 2012 we will implement the national Horse power limit for H2 ONLY soooo lame. rules such as these will bring the downfall of HC over time. im new to the game but i see nothing good to come of this. i was hoping to make it out to SoCal later this year but screw that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhoenixR Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Yep -- so much for running any SoCal races this year. It's disappointing to see that this rule is now being enforced at the regional level. It's bad enough that it was instituted for Nationals in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
realride Posted March 13, 2012 Author Share Posted March 13, 2012 I' m sure you spend a lot of time thinking and analyzing your point of view, and I do understand you have the right to choose which series you run. I do intent myself to come and run with you guys next time at chuckwalla, I was not able to be there for the first one this, I was building my new k24 H2 motor, and yes I will be happy to run it with any horse power limit in AZ region, as long as you think it's fair for me to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhoenixR Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 I think Leland's point was more that: assuming an engine is built within the limits of the rules, there should not be a horsepower limit. In all of the various forms of motorsports that I have run, I have never encountered horsepower caps. In fact, I decided against going to Nationals last year because I didn't agree with the rule. If enforcement of this rule trickles down to the regional level...I dunno...time to part out or park the car, I suppose. I've always enjoyed the engineering and development aspect of motorsports and these are things that are apparently frowned upon. Instead of forcing everyone to pull timing and slow their cars down, why don't we just make a rule giving everyone the blue ribbons that they apparently want so badly. There will always be some cars that are faster than others -- that's a simple fact. Constantly f*cking with the rules will serve no purpose other than driving competitors away and killing the series. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
realride Posted March 13, 2012 Author Share Posted March 13, 2012 I agree with the philosophy of motorsport and club racing, but you should ask your AZ leader he came down and had fun with us in Fontana, maybe he can give some insight on the power difference he might has felt at Fontana. Again there are no perfect solutions to any given issue by trying to find solution for so.cal highly competitive field and highly talented drivers. here for you some fun in fontana what racing is Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Marcel D. Posted March 13, 2012 Members Share Posted March 13, 2012 Look at it this way and hopefully this will help you guys see why it is good to have a hp cap . If you have a cap specially at nationals that gives a chance for people that otherwise can't do a full build a chance to compete at the same level than a guy that has taken the build to the max. Don't forget that budget is in consideration here. Let's say you have x or y engine and you just have a mild build, let's say you making 165 hp and just so happens it is your cap. Now here I am with the same engine making 15-20 hp more than you , how ? How about spending another 5 to 10 thousand just taking it to the max of the rules. That wouldn't be fair for any of you guys for me to run away and lap you. Also the cap discourages people to spend mega dollars in their engine, at the end everybody wins since it is a level field . Now it becomes a matter of driving ability not a matter of hp. I hope that you guys don't get discouraged and come and join the fun and hopefully we can pay the visit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILIKETODRIVE Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Don't forget that budget is in consideration here. I agree with this. However...Honda Challenge is not Performance Touring. In PT I can build a car to the max of the rules AND my budget. (If you need me to explain this, I can.) In HC, if I don't build it to the max of the rules that is my own fault. They are outlined for me to follow, depending on which engine/chassis I choose. How about spending another 5 to 10 thousand just taking it to the max of the rules. That wouldn't be fair for any of you guys for me to run away and lap you. If I choose to build a budget mid-pack car I know what to expect out of the car. I also know what to expect out of myself. I also know what the limits of the rules are. Therefore, I should not complain and tell everybody else to lower their whp to let me catch up. Now to the last part... Also the cap discourages people to spend mega dollars in their engine, at the end everybody wins since it is a level field . Now it becomes a matter of driving ability not a matter of hp. If this were the case, I would build a Spec E30 or 944 Spec. (Spec Miata doesn't count because it takes mega bucks to run up front.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhoenixR Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 I understand the concept behind the hp caps, and in certain circumstances, I could see it as being beneficial. However, I do not think HC is one of those circumstances. I personally think that the HP caps will serve to increase the amount of money I will spend over the course of the year. When I first built my car (almost 4 years ago), I chose the b16 knowing full well that I would give up torque to the higher displacement motors but be able to make up the gap on the top end. My old, near stock b16 dynoed at 176 whp and made 110 ft/lbs of torque. I gave up near 30 ft/lbs of torque on a b20 but also had a significant horsepower advantage. Restricted to 165 whp (and assuming I don't lose any torque in the process), my hp advantage over that same b20 just shrank to a mere 5. Giving up 30 ft/lbs of torque doesn't seem like a fair trade off for 5 whp. Now I am in a position where I feel the need to develop a completely new engine platform just to stay competitive. If HC was intended to be all about driver skill and budget (and not one's ability to build and develop a car), it should have been made a spec series. There are way too many variables for something like a HP cap to actually have any real effect. Some people are still going to outspend others, people will still have high-dollar race engines, and certain cars will be quicker than others. Racing to me is about who can go the fastest, not who can go the fastest while spending the least amount of money. If budget is an issue, H4 is still offered as a National class. Hopefully I'm not offending anybody -- I just felt the need to voice my opinion due to the fact that I have been dwelling on this issue for some time now. This is all just my .02. Tony Lisa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Marcel D. Posted March 13, 2012 Members Share Posted March 13, 2012 But you have to remember that h2 is basically h4 with a swap and you should be able to go to the junk yard and swap an engine and be competitive. It should not be about spending a bunch of money to run in the front and that is what's going on. All we want to do is to give anyone entering an event here an equal chance to win , it's simple . Why do you want to just build a car to run around in the tail when for the same money you can have fun in a battle for the front. Now this was an agreement between drivers not an order coming from higher command. Let's see what happens maybe we will have awesome battles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhoenixR Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 I look forward to watching you guys race. I will say, however, that this is the only sanctioning body that I have encountered where the same car can be legal in one region yet illegal in another... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Marcel D. Posted March 13, 2012 Members Share Posted March 13, 2012 Of course we all want to go really fast , but we are a racing class not time attack , all the cars are supposed to be equal , and every racing class anywhere being btcc , wtcc, grand am , Rolex, you name it have a way to try to make all the cars level at one point. If you want a super fast car why not allow turbos or supercharges or any power adder since the idea would be to have the fastest car no matter what. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhoenixR Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 I raced with World Challenge, Grand-AM, and Rolex and there were no HP caps. There was a rule book in place that each car had to adhere to, and that's pretty much it. Certain cars were better than others and that's just the way it was. The closest thing I've encountered to HP caps would probably be rewards weight which I think is a fundamentally better system regardless. In response to your statement about forced induction: if that's going to be your standpoint, why allow motor swaps at all? Should the rules be re-written to state that every HC should be a 1992 Civic DX with a D15B7 as a powerplant? It would certainly be cheap and all of the cars would theoretically be the same, assuming we make them all run the same suspension, brakes, etc. At that point, I think I would personally just go buy a Miata. I didn't ever say that I wanted a "super fast" car -- I was simply stating that I shouldn't be punished for building a car to the rules. I understand what the HP caps are trying to accomplish -- I just feel that it isn't a particularly effective way to do it and , consequently, I don't agree with the rule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Marcel D. Posted March 13, 2012 Members Share Posted March 13, 2012 Don't put words where there is none, I didn't say to allow forced induction , read my post . If you raced all those series then you know that the rules for each car are created specifically to make the cars as equal on the track as possible. You are dealing with 10 different manufactures and engines , here the easiest way to equal the field is hp and weight, very simple approach I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
realride Posted March 13, 2012 Author Share Posted March 13, 2012 you all have valid points.most pro series do not have HP cap, but do have some sort of mandatory ecu or full data system required. Not sure if all HC 2 want to have to invest in mandatory data system or ECU,if you race in GRAND-AM you already know the cost. HP limit is a simple way to even the field without huge cost on all sides including NASA staff. let's not forget, that the last thing we want to do every sunday afternoon is a tear down or cams check, or oil check, or fuel check, or rods check, or ecu download, or injectors check, or intake check, or manifold check, you get my point the fact we are dealing with multiple engine setup is very hard and time consuming to monitor in full details. adding reward weight is an other valid option, we just have issue with max weight before driver safety become a major issue (and not talking about insurance), but it has been talk about in the past. again takes staff to calculate weight for each race etc.. more staff needed. Maybe with all the HC posting going on online we could get more volunteer to help at each event. we are trying to improve, and bring back good clean competition. the future will tell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Gabe O. Posted March 14, 2012 Members Share Posted March 14, 2012 assuming an engine is built within the limits of the rules, there should not be a horsepower limit. Agreed. If HC was intended to be all about driver skill and budget (and not one's ability to build and develop a car), it should have been made a spec series. There are way too many variables for something like a HP cap to actually have any real effect. Some people are still going to outspend others, people will still have high-dollar race engines, and certain cars will be quicker than others. Racing to me is about who can go the fastest, not who can go the fastest while spending the least amount of money. If budget is an issue, H4 is still offered as a National class. Excellent point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhoenixR Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 Don't put words where there is none, I didn't say to allow forced induction , read my post . If you raced all those series then you know that the rules for each car are created specifically to make the cars as equal on the track as possible. You are dealing with 10 different manufactures and engines , here the easiest way to equal the field is hp and weight, very simple approach I think. I'm sorry -- I wasn't trying to be a dick and put words in anyone's mouth. I was just using an extreme example in an attempt to make a point. I absolutely agree that the rules should level the playing field as much as possible. It is just my opinion that the HP caps are a really bad way to go about doing it. If cost and fairness are the two real factors, wouldn't it make more sense just to make everyone run stock motors? That eliminates the expense of cams, cam gears, intake manis, TBs, valvetrains, etc and would serve to eliminate the "who can outspend whom" game. I know full-well how the rules are written in each of those series. Obviously there are huge efforts made to prevent one team or platform from having an advantage over another. The rules limit what we can do to the cars by way of engine/drivetrain, brakes, shocks, aero, weight, and so on and so forth. In extreme instances we have also had to deal with restrictor plates. Even then, nobody said "you can only make XXX amount of power" and nobody said it for a reason. It is a backward approach to trying to keep costs down and it is also very difficult to enforce. Again, I am not meaning to offend anyone whatsover -- I am simply stating my opinion on the subject. Regards, Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhoenixR Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 deleted double post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leland Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 So I run H2 and so does Joe Shmoe... Joe Shmoe keeps beating me so lets make him slower instead of me going faster. What are we communist? So engine development has just been wiped from H2, but 1 can still spend bookoo on suspension, aero, chassis stiffening, brakes, wheels, tires, etc. Im just saying many stepped into H2 with the perception that it was the easiest to build the car field with a wide variety modifications and from there the development of ones car and driving skills could begin. Per the allowable amount of engine modifications in the rules an engine, any engine, can only make X amount of hp/torq anyway. H2 still does allow you to develop your engine but only regionally(SoCal exempt now). If there is a HP cap then why even allow engine mods in the first place? Also isnt what you can do to the car set apart the different classes in the first place? Maybe there should only be H4 and H1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leland Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 looks like most my points were already made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leland Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 I look forward to watching you guys race. I will say, however, that this is the only sanctioning body that I have encountered where the same car can be legal in one region yet illegal in another... this is the perfect statement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
realride Posted March 14, 2012 Author Share Posted March 14, 2012 Again this is only for so.cal not for any other region. the choice was made by so.cal racers so I do not really understand why so much issues from other region. this is not a reflection what is going on in HC in any other place than So.cal, again rules change was made from HC2 Racers that participates in most of the races. Button willow looks to be very promising with Renan coming, Edo should be there, Jeremy and Manny confirm,Joe landry, Tom Paule, Myself, Dona is coming, so looks like we will have the top 5-6 drivers in the country. to be honest if you are not in the top five I would not worry about your HP limit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhoenixR Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 The az guys took note of this change because quite a few of us already had a couple of socal races on our schedules for this year. Come to find out many of our cars will end up being illegal... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Marcel D. Posted March 14, 2012 Members Share Posted March 14, 2012 So what am I , step child, don't make me mad or I will go run pt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
realride Posted March 14, 2012 Author Share Posted March 14, 2012 Maybe I'm just a little confuse French man, but this post was to inform my So.cal HC2 racers about the changes that was requested by them. I thought this forums was to beast way to inform my peeps sorry about starting a major issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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