Let's say you're going to compete in TTC-TTA, which car?

[Cobra4B]

Let him learn the hard way like the rest of us Stock LS6 FTMFW. Been TTing and racing the car going on 2 years now. Zero missed track time for anything. [Knocking on my faux wood desk right now]

[boomn29]

I'll be working with Jeff and Greg in the near future for a good, solid TTC car (my WRX).

 

See you in the paddock (not on track ). Just playing.

 

Seriously though, there is a reason people say these things. I use to track turbo awd cars. You either have a huge budget, or the car is going to be broke all the time. There is a reason people say Keep it Simple Stupid with track cars. The more complexity, the more its going to be a POS. And racing even makes a miata look unreliable comparatively.

 

I come across so many wrx, evo, dsm owners that "think" oh well they are dead reliable in my HPDE for 2 seasons, ill prove you wrong! (I went through that stage too). Once they get into any sort of competitive environment the car just has constant issues and they lie to themselves that its reliable, it was "just that". People are telling you, because they either went through the experience themselves or know someone that did; we have heard this argument a million times.

 

The single best move I made in my "track career" was to go to a much slower, simpler setup. I ended up rwd, NA with a bone-stock motor. And I am loving how reliable it is. Can't win a championship if your always working on the car in the paddock, no matter how fast you are.

 

 

All that said, sorry for all of that, I did it, most likely youll still refuse to listen, so I wish you the best of luck. An AWD turbo car is definitely a good car to have for a class, but not necessarily good for your state of mind or driving.

I feel sorry for your previous engine tuner...

 

I've seen many a WRX and STi burn through engines and turbo's. It'll happen with any car that's pushed towards it's max. Keep in mind these cars make 180-250whp stock and people are running them 300-400whp all on stock internals, gearboxes and bottom ends (including me). A majority of the LSx crowd detune their engines to make hp/weight requirements so that's a whole different comparison.

 

 

But don't group all them turbo cars together. There's plenty of Evo's along with turbo'd Porsche's and Audi's with tons of track miles on them both in the NASA world, SCCA, and Grand Am series.

My personal turbo AWD car hasn't missed a session in over 3 years. And trust me; it's being pushed hard. And I don't have a crew, it's just basic maintenance.

 

Like I said earlier; the right person in the right car with the RIGHT build.

[Cobra4B]

I just see poor Justing Matthews on his 3rd or 4th motor built by a top tier shop while the rest of us in our hooptie old C5s keep on truckin'.

[kbrew8991]

must not be all that top end... or so the results seem to indicate anyway.

[Cooper93]

My WRX makes about 170awhp stock, and I need to be just north of 200awhp for TTD. I'll also have to keep the stock exhaust on to keep my points low enough for TTD. I can get close to, and maybe just a bit over 200awhp with the stock exhaust, but then you run into other issues. My tuner knows these issues very well, as he has been tuning Subarus and EVOs for many years. If we can only get "close" to 200awhp, then I'll have to drive my ass off in order to podium in TTD.

 

If I decide to jump up to TTC, there will be enough points available for me to get somewhere in the neighborhood of 230awhp, but that's very short of ~275awhp that I need to be competitive. I'd definitely have to do a turbo swap (VF43) to get to that power level and hope Greg will be kind enough to let me do that without a huge penalty. Cross that bridge when I get to it.

 

At the end of the day, it's all about tuning and knowledge of the temperamental EJ series engines. Don't overboost, don't run out of oil, don't overheat. IF you run your car north of 300awhp with stock internals, yea, it won't last as long if you were running stock numbers or slightly higher. Now, if I were to go inside my engine and put forged pistons, billet rods and crank, race bearings, etc, etc, etc, then it'll run those higher numbers more reliably.

 

I won't be racing my WRX for many years to come. I'll end up building either a Honda Challenge car or a Spec series car.

[D_Eclipse9916]

My WRX makes about 170awhp stock, and I need to be just north of 200awhp for TTD. I'll also have to keep the stock exhaust on to keep my points low enough for TTD. I can get close to, and maybe just a bit over 200awhp with the stock exhaust, but then you run into other issues. My tuner knows these issues very well, as he has been tuning Subarus and EVOs for many years. If we can only get "close" to 200awhp, then I'll have to drive my ass off in order to podium in TTD.

 

If I decide to jump up to TTC, there will be enough points available for me to get somewhere in the neighborhood of 230awhp, but that's very short of ~275awhp that I need to be competitive. I'd definitely have to do a turbo swap (VF43) to get to that power level and hope Greg will be kind enough to let me do that without a huge penalty. Cross that bridge when I get to it.

 

At the end of the day, it's all about tuning and knowledge of the temperamental EJ series engines. Don't overboost, don't run out of oil, don't overheat. IF you run your car north of 300awhp with stock internals, yea, it won't last as long if you were running stock numbers or slightly higher. Now, if I were to go inside my engine and put forged pistons, billet rods and crank, race bearings, etc, etc, etc, then it'll run those higher numbers more reliably.

 

I won't be racing my WRX for many years to come. I'll end up building either a Honda Challenge car or a Spec series car.

 

Good ideas on keeping it stock. And where are you getting this need ~275awhp to be competitive in TTC? You do realize the NASA Championships TTC winning M3 only put down 229whp and a minimum weight of 3176? The other competitive cars were s2ks and are around the ~210-220whp according to their forums at ~2850. I highly doubt greg would allow you to run 275awhp in TTC He was shocked my car put down 229whp, they even asked if I had cams, and had to "sniff check" wether I had cats on or not.

 

Youd be competitive in a 230awhp WRX...

[Cooper93]

My WRX makes about 170awhp stock, and I need to be just north of 200awhp for TTD. I'll also have to keep the stock exhaust on to keep my points low enough for TTD. I can get close to, and maybe just a bit over 200awhp with the stock exhaust, but then you run into other issues. My tuner knows these issues very well, as he has been tuning Subarus and EVOs for many years. If we can only get "close" to 200awhp, then I'll have to drive my ass off in order to podium in TTD.

 

If I decide to jump up to TTC, there will be enough points available for me to get somewhere in the neighborhood of 230awhp, but that's very short of ~275awhp that I need to be competitive. I'd definitely have to do a turbo swap (VF43) to get to that power level and hope Greg will be kind enough to let me do that without a huge penalty. Cross that bridge when I get to it.

 

At the end of the day, it's all about tuning and knowledge of the temperamental EJ series engines. Don't overboost, don't run out of oil, don't overheat. IF you run your car north of 300awhp with stock internals, yea, it won't last as long if you were running stock numbers or slightly higher. Now, if I were to go inside my engine and put forged pistons, billet rods and crank, race bearings, etc, etc, etc, then it'll run those higher numbers more reliably.

 

I won't be racing my WRX for many years to come. I'll end up building either a Honda Challenge car or a Spec series car.

 

Good ideas on keeping it stock. And where are you getting this need ~275awhp to be competitive in TTC? You do realize the NASA Championships TTC winning M3 only put down 229whp and a minimum weight of 3176? The other competitive cars were s2ks and are around the ~210-220whp according to their forums at ~2850. I highly doubt greg would allow you to run 275awhp in TTC He was shocked my car put down 229whp, they even asked if I had cams, and had to "sniff check" wether I had cats on or not.

 

Youd be competitive in a 230awhp WRX...

 

My math may have been off. I was planning on keeping the full interior (don't really care about making the WRX a straight race car). With full interior, 1/4 tank of gas, and me in the car, it tipped the scales at CMP at 3197. When I did quick math, without any other "adjustments" I came up with 266awhp (3200/12). I haven't dug any deeper into TTC yet (as far as "adjustments" go), but the stock turbo can't push enough air to get that kind of power no matter how you look at it. I'd be VERY lucky to see 230awhp with the stock turbo.

 

For TTD, my max hp/wt ratio after adjustments is 14.95:1 which puts me at 214awhp (3200lbs) and with the stock exhaust on, that may not be attainable.

[FormulaRedline]

The other competitive cars were s2ks and are around the ~210-220whp according to their forums at ~2850.

DJ, where did you read that? NASA dynoed me at 206whp 3 years ago and I've got no reason to think I'd be any higher today. Most AP1s (2.0 liter engine) come in under 200 and stock AP2s (2.2L) would be a little over 200. Rene's car that won in 2008 had a reflash and was around 220, but none of last year's competitors were drive by wire so they couldn't have had the reflash. They should have all been around 200whp. Did Dan or Jason say they had more?

 

Rene essentially traded aero points (no wing) for the reflash and resulting horsepower. For Mid-Ohio, this is the correct trade to make. Granted, we all beat his 2008 lap time, but those were less refined days and he certainly wasn't taking full advantage of the rules

[D_Eclipse9916]

The other competitive cars were s2ks and are around the ~210-220whp according to their forums at ~2850.

DJ, where did you read that? NASA dynoed me at 206whp 3 years ago and I've got no reason to think I'd be any higher today. Most AP1s (2.0 liter engine) come in under 200 and stock AP2s (2.2L) would be a little over 200. Rene's car that won in 2008 had a reflash and was around 220, but none of last year's competitors were drive by wire so they couldn't have had the reflash. They should have all been around 200whp. Did Dan or Jason say they had more?

 

Rene essentially traded aero points (no wing) for the reflash and resulting horsepower. For Mid-Ohio, this is the correct trade to make. Granted, we all beat his 2008 lap time, but those were less refined days and he certainly wasn't taking full advantage of the rules

 

Dan said he was higher in the 210-220hp range off one thread on s2ki. Just going based off what I heard.

 

All im saying is...you dont need 270awhp to win TTC lol.

[speedengineer]

Dan said he was higher in the 210-220hp range off one thread on s2ki. Just going based off what I heard.

 

I was also in the middle of that range. I have an AP2 motor though, which are known to make more hp than AP1's. (Thus we get stuck with the TTC base class rather than the TTD** base class).

[dans2k]

mine made 222HP on 2 dynodynamics but that usualy works out about 5-10hp less on a nasa spec dynojet

 

I would set the car up to handle first then get whatever power you can having a nice powerband and AWD is gonna help a good bit I would think

if the car won't turn the extra power is just helping you keep up down the straight and thats no fun

[cuonice]

I made 193whp at Nationals weighing in around 2870 in my TTC S2000. DJ is right, you don't need a ton of HP to succeed in TTC... it certainly helps though!

 

-Aaron

[boomn29]

While the TTC S2000's weight around 2800 - a TTC Subaru depending on year will be around 3100. You need more power to move more weight. Don't get me wrong, I never said I'd build a Subaru for TTC.

 

I do think a BMW 135i would be a great TTC car with a reflash.

Also curious what a 2011 Mustang V6 could do. I mean; if it'll turn...

[Rob S.]

.....or you could be crazy like me and build a TTC 240sx with Nissan's fantastic truck engine.

[kbrew8991]

torque is free - a truck engine should have a big advantage

[Rob S.]

torque is free - a truck engine should have a big advantage

 

Well.......not so much. In OEM form it makes good torque for a 4cyl but after 5K rpm the hp drops off a cliff. The trick with this engine is to make it rev higher while making decent hp at higher engine speeds. It's a tall order!

Edited April 3, 2012 by Guest

[kbrew8991]

(I'm in the same boat with my Camry engine)

[efoss28]

Mazdaspeed3? Developing parts for mine right now. You guys may laugh, but it fits TTC with 245 Hoosiers, full suspension, and with 260 whp 290 tq. It's been very competitive in TTC with stock suspension and BFG 225's so far.

[cuonice]

MS3 could do very well in TTC - MS Miata is probably my favorite car at the moment for a TTC build. Could make a TQ number in C trim that would make a lot of S2000 owners envious!

[sperkins]

if you're ever looking for a good birthday or christmas present for scott, he can always use more pushrods

So true.

[vpnwiz]

MS Miata is probably my favorite car at the moment for a TTC build. Could make a TQ number in C trim that would make a lot of S2000 owners envious!

It can do a lot more than that, Jeff Diffenderfer won PTA at Miller in 2010 with a 'speed Miata. It was "slightly" modified though

[johnu]

I won 2011 nasa-se ttc in a 2004 miata mazdaspeed. My son is also running his this year. The car is capable of running faster than the current track records at cmp and ra. I just need to learn to drive it!!!

[FormulaRedline]

A lot of these TTC setups sound like they could be good in certain situations. However, for Mid Ohio, I'd take a car with straight HP over one that turns or even one with good HP/weight (but low HP and weight). With two long straights, it's a BIG track for our "slow" class and, at the top end, it's all about overcoming drag with horsepower. The low rate of acceleration in the top gears means weight is nearly irrelevant.

 

Anyway, point is, to pick the right tool for the job, you must first know what that job is. The answer will be different if you want win at Mid Ohio than if you want to win at Grattan.

[kbrew8991]

build a drag car for Mid-O. Those turns from the end of the back straight all the way through turn 1 are not important!

[boomn29]

build a drag car for Mid-O. Those turns from the end of the back straight all the way through turn 1 are not important!

Proven by that TTR Lister at Nats.

 

I've got video of him early in the event passing me out of T3; and he literally disappears down the backstraight. Then he slowed me down through the 2nd 1/2 of the track; but I assume he got better to turn a 1:27 something.

 

Edit; found the video! My car in TTA trim put down ~350whp at Nats: