mweeks Posted May 17, 2005 Share Posted May 17, 2005 I did a search for good alignment settings but I still have an unanswered question. Is the CASTER adjustable and if so what should it be? After talking with some people I am going middle of the road setting with -3.0 camber front w/ 1/8" toe out, and -2.0 camber rear w/ 0 toe. Does this sound about right for a baseline setup? Thanks for any help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
944-Spec#94 Posted May 17, 2005 Share Posted May 17, 2005 Sounds like a recipe for disaster really... The camber settings are ok, but the rear toe will hurt you badly in the braking zones. The rear suspension geometry has a tendancy to flex under braking and zero tow will cause toe-out and make the car very unstable. You won't be able to brake without swapping ends. Ok maybe not that bad, but you will suffer. The are two ways around this. 1) remove all the rubber suspension bushing and replace with metal. This takes out much of the play does a better job of maintianing the static toe settings. This is the ideal way for a PCA 944 GT car or stock class 944 or 951. Now you can't do this since bushings must remain non-metallic per our rules. So option 2 is what you use 2) Dail in some static toe in for the rear to ensure it does not tow out under braking. Now of you have replace some of the rubber with stiffer non metallic bushings it wil help, but you will still need some rear tow in . I run 3/16 toe in in the rear. This is what was put in by Chris Cervelli of Technodyne a few years ago. It works great. Also on the front go with 0 toe. It will also tend to tow out under braking and a little static tow out will wear the tires faster and cause some strub at speed. If you to set-up for autocross then tow out might not be bad in front or in the rear. On the track ideal is zero front and rear since they cause less roing drag. Of course zero is not the best in the rear for the reasons I mentioned. Now Caster... On the steel arm cars caster is "not adjustable" with out caster plates (top of the strut). On my car I run 2 deg caster. Chris told me it was important to have it even from side to side, but how much was not big deal. I have caster/camber plates so I could adjust if needed, but have been happy with what I had. Caster is adjustable on the aluminium arm cars I run 3.5 and 2.5 camber and get pretty even tire wear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mweeks Posted May 17, 2005 Author Share Posted May 17, 2005 I have replaced all the bushings with weltmeister poly. Front and rear. Also, I have 400lbs springs in front 30mm torsion bars rears and koni's all the way around, if that makes a difference. I am confused though, Glen Uslan of Autosport, and POC guy, says -2.75 front camber, 1/8 toe out, rears at -1.75 camber 0 toe. I assume there are probably as many opinions on this topic as there are cars. I guess I should start somewhere and try to dial it in from there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Comeau Posted May 17, 2005 Share Posted May 17, 2005 You pays yer money and takes yer chances, huh? Only testing the car as you drive it will yield the best set up for you. I like your idea of starting in the ballpark and then tweaking it. Joe has been racing and tweaking our 2600 lb 944-spec suspensions for a couple years now. He does the homework and does the race testing. I listen when he talks because I have yet to beat him on the track! I was at 3.5 degrees neg camber in the front and reduced it to 3.0 when I went from 350 to 400 lb front springs. The car was rolling up less with the heavier springs. We have also changed the rear camber from 2.5 up closer to 3.0. TOYO TIRES asks for as much caster as possible on their website. Toe out in the front helps with turn in but causes drag on the straights. Our cars handle much better than accelerate. I'll go with 0 toe in the front to help the accelleration part. I hope to do a lot of testing at the PCA Time Trial at Buttonwillow on June 4-5. Hopefully, that will make me a little more competitive at the NASA racing event the following weekend on June 11-12. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mweeks Posted May 17, 2005 Author Share Posted May 17, 2005 WOW, I just got a call from this alignment shop, the guy said he can't get more than -.75 in front ? This does'nt look good, is there anything I can tell him? I told him to look again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mweeks Posted May 17, 2005 Author Share Posted May 17, 2005 Oh, and the best part, he is charging me $225! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Comeau Posted May 17, 2005 Share Posted May 17, 2005 Do you have adjustable camber plates up front? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mweeks Posted May 17, 2005 Author Share Posted May 17, 2005 yes, and they are completely maxed out on the camber. I think this guys an idiot! My mortgage broker knowlege tells me that there must be a eccentric bolt or adjustment somewhere on the strut. Sad is'nt it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Comeau Posted May 18, 2005 Share Posted May 18, 2005 The inboard mount is fixed. The ball joint corner is fixed. There is some slop in the rear end of the control arm at the caster block. Does the guy know Porsches? Is the control arm correct for the year? What year is the car? Steel or aluminum arms? If aluminum, what's the part number on the arm? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
944-Spec#94 Posted May 18, 2005 Share Posted May 18, 2005 -.75 what is that camber or caster? Obviously it is easy to get more of both. Note if you are reading this and don't have camber plates getting more than 2 to 2.5 deg negative is hard. It is easy to get -4.5 with camber plates however. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mweeks Posted May 18, 2005 Author Share Posted May 18, 2005 I have Weltmeister camber plates. And the -.75, that was camber!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Comeau Posted May 18, 2005 Share Posted May 18, 2005 Get a new alignment shop! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mweeks Posted May 18, 2005 Author Share Posted May 18, 2005 Agreed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mweeks Posted May 18, 2005 Author Share Posted May 18, 2005 I got it done! I went and picked up my car from the nut case shop and took it somewhere else. And waalaa, in about two hours they had it done. I went with a compromised setup. Front -3.0 camber, max caster 0 toe Rear -2.25 camber .15 toe in See you satuday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Comeau Posted May 18, 2005 Share Posted May 18, 2005 See you there! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZ Coupe Jason Posted May 18, 2005 Share Posted May 18, 2005 Hey Joe what specs do you Run, I am going in to get a new allignment .. and would like to know what other people are running.. I just run -3.5 Camber and low caster and minimal Toe! If its a secret let me know, you dont have to share Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Rea Posted May 19, 2005 Share Posted May 19, 2005 Your final set-up is very close to mine, which is -3.1 front, -2.25 rear, with about 1/16 toe-in for the rear and just a smidge up front. I run a pretty stiff set-up with all the delrin and poly bushings, 400lb springs and 30mm torsion bar, shocks at full stiff (koni). I am actually wearing a little more on the inside up front, with very even wear in the rear. I will likely soften the sways to full soft and the shocks/struts some. I expect the wear should be pretty good then, but as we all know, each car is different and test/tune is the best way. Good luck with it and have fun!! Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Comeau Posted May 19, 2005 Share Posted May 19, 2005 Hey Steve, Bring your 944-spec car out to Willow this weekend. It might sell! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
944-Spec#94 Posted May 19, 2005 Share Posted May 19, 2005 Hey Joe what specs do you Run, I am going in to get a new allignment .. and would like to know what other people are running.. I just run -3.5 Camber and low caster and minimal Toe! If its a secret let me know, you dont have to share Jason Jason, It is no secret. I have no secrets in car set-up and I never have. In fact I have no secrets in diving the fast line. The only secrets I have are how will try to pass you or any other spec driver. (hmm I guess I have never published my sway bar settings either. hmm I guess I will keep those secret too, but those are very "personal feel biased anyway") Hey I have to have SOMETHING up my sleeve. As evidenced by Glenn I can't stay "faster" forever. So I stated my aligment in this post and it is on the 944spec website under 944-spec tech. I have full write up on how my car is prepared. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg f Posted May 20, 2005 Share Posted May 20, 2005 On the early cars the caster is adjusted by loosening the two 17mm head bolts that hold the caster block and sliding the rear of the control arm outboard as far as it will go. The ground control camber plates also allow you to slide the upper mounting point rearward to gain more caster. Greg F. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Comeau Posted May 20, 2005 Share Posted May 20, 2005 Thanks Greg! I hope you and your customers can come racing with us soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg f Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 I hope to see some SoCAl racers at Thunder Hill this fall. Tim, I thought you might be interested to know that I have completed Rental Racer #1 and had the opportunity to run it back to back with my ITS car at Bremerton Raceways a few weeks ago. It was an unintentional test, as my ITS car popped an oil leak from the balance shaft seal under the intake. My renter could only attend Saturday for a double regional weekend, so I put my tires on it and ran it Sunday PM. It was interesting to feel the difference between the cars, especially considering the relatively small difference in lap times. ITS #28 1983 944 2725lb wi driver 88 engine, balanced, cut head header, 3" exhaust, monoball suspension, short shift, Turbo radiator, 7X15 Cookies wi Hoosier 225/45/15 JRZ s/a shocks, LSD, short 5th, 450lb fr springs 30mm rear torsions, Custom chip Best time 1:00.8 ITS/ Spec44 #29 1986 944 2735lb wi driver Stock engine, 155,000mi, stock bushings, Koni shocks, 450lb fr springs, 30mm rear torsions, open diff, tall 5th, header, 3" exhaust, GURU chip, Best time 1:01.4 I was amazed that the 86 was nearly as fast as my ITS car pretty much right out of the box at similar weights. There were only four of us 944's out there and the rental was second on Sat and first place on Sunday! Other than needing to exercise some patience due to the open diff it was just as easy to drive as the #28 car. This car would be available on a fly in and drive basis if you or any of the other Spec 944 guys ever wanted to swap rides. This car would be available for events at Bremerton, Seattle, Portland, etc. Future short term plans include a LSD and the short 5th. Greg F Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Comeau Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 Interesting, huh? It makes you question every penny spent on go fast stuff...... Our 944-spec cars weigh closer to 2600 lbs with driver. I have 2 944-spec rentals available now for SoCal visitors, too. It really helps introduce people to our great class. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
944-Spec#94 Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 Greg, 2735 lbs... Pretty heavy. Take out 100 lbs and the car will get even closer in speed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg f Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 The only items left to remove are the door panels, headlights and side windows. Living here in the great NW, it is best to keep at least the headlights and side windows. So it will most likely stay at 2700lb or so for the time being. The same exact program on a 85 car recently came down to 2645lb wi. driver. Hmmmmm. Greg F Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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