over by one point, but very disadvantaged on weight/power?

[s4gobabygo]

i'm a TT noob, and i was setting up to enter my BMW 135i in its native TTC class but have ended up at 20 points total, bringing me up to TTB by one point. in the weight/power category, however, my ratio comes much closer to that of TTD than TTB. it's an overweight turbocharged car with 100% OEM drivetrain, so i'm foregoing quite a lot of points-free power (could add software) and weight reduction (it's about 170 lbs overweight at minimum comp. weight). i don't want to add software or begin stripping out the car, since it's a daily driver with a warranty. is this the type of thing that might be reviewed so that i could compete in TTC, or not likely?

 

thanks!

[BlkGt3]

Evrybody goes through this exercise. Easiest cure is run a smaller tire of one that has less points

 

Peter

[kbrew8991]

a car that handles well or has other similar advantages shouldn't be very close to the hp/weight caps, or it would dominate. Choose your frog, live with the warts and all that

 

Look for a way to shed that single point. Pull an intake off, or go with a slightly different tire setup, or similar.

 

Also, you could get reclassified by the National Director at the higher weight in exchange for a more favorable (lower) base class - and that could let you end up in TTC as-is.

[s4gobabygo]

Also, you could get reclassified by the National Director at the higher weight in exchange for a more favorable (lower) base class - and that could let you end up in TTC as-is.

 

is there any information out there on how this can work? maybe some kind of log of previous reclassification decisions to use as examples of what's a reasonable request? i just want to get an idea of what i'm getting into before i bother the national TT director with what may be a very common question. the car is a TTC* base assessment and is FI, so i get 12 points right off the bat. i have 5 points for coilovers (+3 for dampers and +2 for springs), and 3 for tires (+1 for 265 size and +2 for star spec compound). i realize i could drop down to a 255 tire relatively "easily", but i literally JUST bought these tires and don't want to shell out for a new set of expensive tires when i might be eligible for some adjustment.

 

on a separate note, can anyone provide insight into why carrying "ballast" doesn't reduce points? this aspect of the classification formula don't make sense to me. if losing 20 pounds is the same as adding a swaybar (for example... 2 points each), why isn't the opposite true?

[TurboShortBus]

is there any information out there on how this can work?

This is covered in the TT rules, specifically section 6.5. You should review them all, anyway.

 

i just want to get an idea of what i'm getting into before i bother the national TT director with what may be a very common question.

Ask away, but you will need to provide him with 3 dyno runs (see requirements for those in the rules, as well as the dyno certification form) and your desired minimum competition weight.

 

on a separate note, can anyone provide insight into why carrying "ballast" doesn't reduce points? this aspect of the classification formula don't make sense to me. if losing 20 pounds is the same as adding a swaybar (for example... 2 points each), why isn't the opposite true?

This won't be changing, as it isn't a new question, and all instances have been shot down in many other threads here. No need for further discussion, IMO.

 

And, you can remove 35 pounds for +2 points. Note the use of "is greater than."

 

Mark

[drivinhardz06]

take something off to get back a few points and run it in C. The last thing you want to do is "barely" run in the next class with 18 pts on the table.

[dew-e]

Welcome to "Time Trial NASA's new timed events for street cars." Just keep in mind that the almost fully track prepped TTC Honda S2000 that pulled up next to you is about 5 seconds faster per lap.. hehe

 

What region is it, and how many cars currently run in TTC or TTB? Odds are, if the class is heavily populated with existing competitors, that you won't be competitive right out of the gate anyway. If you are just starting in TT, just class the car how it is, and spend your money on track time getting used to the group. Then work on the fast setup for the car. I'm going to bet that a 225 r-comp is going to be faster than most street tires, but some people really love the star spec. I thought they got slick and would overheat quickly, but if you can turn the car into a one lap wonder on a street tire, more power to you.

 

Finding the fast setup for a particular car will cost money since you already have some mods on the car. Since it is a new car, and BMW suspensions are not that bad to begin with, going with just linear rate springs and a better tire compound may be faster than the coilovers and a street tire unless you sprung for the big boy JRZ/moton two way internal reservoir coilovers. Also, if there is competition, expect that the ones that are trying to win have all of the free points mods completed on their cars. Full cage and dead on competition weight are huge advantages that are hard for a street car to overcome.

 

I'd definitely do something with the tuning, but realize that bmw x35 cars are not really that good at handling heat once the tune starts to get aggressive. I've been in one tuned 335 that didn't overheat and go into limp mode after a few laps. The driver was also not that aggressive. One hot lap in the hands of an accomplished TT/race driver and I'm sure that car would have overheated.

 

They can be modified to perform better, and there are limited examples of the 135/335 being raced at a club level, but they have plenty of mods that you wouldn't be able to do and stay in TTC.

[s4gobabygo]

is there any information out there on how this can work?

This is covered in the TT rules, specifically section 6.5. You should review them all, anyway.

Mark

thanks for the reply. i've read the tt rules a dizzying number of times lately, and am very familiar with the guidelines for reclassing, but this section reads as though this kind of consideration is reserved for scenarios of extreme modification to rotary motors, engine swaps, big turbo kits, etc., perhaps not for scenarios as close to showroom stock as i am. am i wrong in getting this impression?

Welcome to "Time Trial NASA's new timed events for street cars." Just keep in mind that the almost fully track prepped TTC Honda S2000 that pulled up next to you is about 5 seconds faster per lap.. hehe

 

What region is it, and how many cars currently run in TTC or TTB? Odds are, if the class is heavily populated with existing competitors, that you won't be competitive right out of the gate anyway. If you are just starting in TT, just class the car how it is, and spend your money on track time getting used to the group. Then work on the fast setup for the car. I'm going to bet that a 225 r-comp is going to be faster than most street tires, but some people really love the star spec. I thought they got slick and would overheat quickly, but if you can turn the car into a one lap wonder on a street tire, more power to you.

 

Finding the fast setup for a particular car will cost money since you already have some mods on the car. Since it is a new car, and BMW suspensions are not that bad to begin with, going with just linear rate springs and a better tire compound may be faster than the coilovers and a street tire unless you sprung for the big boy JRZ/moton two way internal reservoir coilovers. Also, if there is competition, expect that the ones that are trying to win have all of the free points mods completed on their cars. Full cage and dead on competition weight are huge advantages that are hard for a street car to overcome.

 

I'd definitely do something with the tuning, but realize that bmw x35 cars are not really that good at handling heat once the tune starts to get aggressive. I've been in one tuned 335 that didn't overheat and go into limp mode after a few laps. The driver was also not that aggressive. One hot lap in the hands of an accomplished TT/race driver and I'm sure that car would have overheated.

 

They can be modified to perform better, and there are limited examples of the 135/335 being raced at a club level, but they have plenty of mods that you wouldn't be able to do and stay in TTC.

 

Thanks for the welcome. And yes, I’ve seen all the s2000 track records :-/

TTB is very popular in my region, but TTC is not yet. I’m not particularly interested in TTB, as I know the expense involved in getting this car up to par in that class (if that’s even possible). I was at NJMP lightning this weekend on a TT day, though the group was closed, so I was forced to run in HPDE3 without a transponder. My lap times would have been pretty competitive for TTC (though I realize my car isn’t officially classed into TTC). I’d have been in the back half, but at least in the race, and obviously there’s room for improvement. In TTB I’d have been pretty close to the back of a very large pack, and as others have mentioned, I’d be leaving 18 points and some hundreds of pounds on the table, so talent alone isn’t likely to make that an interesting competition.

I also can’t really consider tuning, as I already have heat issues on a completely 100% stock drivetrain, so I’m sure that would not end well, and the additional cooling measures needed would obviously bump me up.

The coilovers I’m using are extremely basic (KW V1), so that’s obviously 5 points not-so-well-spent, but that’s what’s on there.

I guess I was hoping to avoid the whole modification game and just compete in the class where it seems I belong. The cars I see in TTB aren’t at all comparable to what I “brung”.

[jimbow]

The only way to "get back" points for being too heavy is a reclass.

Get a dyno done

pick a weight

send Greg an email

Watch your inbox for your reclass.

 

Remember the reclass removes all the "engine points" as well.

[s4gobabygo]

The only way to "get back" points for being too heavy is a reclass.

Get a dyno done

pick a weight

send Greg an email

Watch your inbox for your reclass.

 

Remember the reclass removes all the "engine points" as well.

 

would this remove the 5 points for forced induction, since i imagine that is built in to adjust for the greater gains to be had from no-points software tuning in FI cars? i have no engine modifications whatsoever.

[kbrew8991]

Yes, it will eliminate those 5 points for you as well. You just have to always dyno under the number you send in in exchange.

[Greg G.]

Did you ever see this?

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=55161&p=349904#p349904

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=55163&p=349906#p349906

[s4gobabygo]

Yes, it will eliminate those 5 points for you as well. You just have to always dyno under the number you send in in exchange.

 

thanks for clarifying. this shouldn't be a problem, as i'm determined to compete with a 100% oem drivetrain to maintain factory warranty/maintenance plan.

 

Did you ever see this?

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=55161&p=349904#p349904

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=55163&p=349906#p349906

 

perhaps i don't truly understand this... is the initial assessment TTC* as the published rules indicate, or TTC** as this february post indicates? my car is a coupe, but its minimum competition weight is far closer to that of the convertible (which is listed in the referenced post as TTC(no asterisk)).

[wlfpkrcn1]

Greg per the rulebook-Perhaps a misprint?

 

 

NASA Time Trial (NASA TT)

Official 2012 National Rules

March 1, 2012, Version 9.2

BMW 128i Coupe ('08-'09) TTD 3250

BMW 135i Coupe ('08) TTC* 3370

[Greg G.]

Good catch, Eric.

 

We updated the TTS/TTU stuff in the TT Rules, and updated the ST Rules March 1st, but did not update the PT Rules or the base classes (two) that got changed.

 

So, the bottom line is that these two base classes did get changed in February, and are correct as listed in the Provisional Classifications.

[s4gobabygo]

Good catch, Eric.

 

We updated the TTS/TTU stuff in the TT Rules, and updated the ST Rules March 1st, but did not update the PT Rules or the base classes (two) that got changed.

 

So, the bottom line is that these two base classes did get changed in February, and are correct as listed in the Provisional Classifications.

 

if this is the case, i'll need to ask for reclassification. a very conservative estimate of my (stock) weight/power ratio is (3520/285) = 12.35. developing oem power, this car is conservatively 599 pounds overweight for TTB (285 x 10.25 = 2921).

[gkmccready]

would this remove the 5 points for forced induction, since i imagine that is built in to adjust for the greater gains to be had from no-points software tuning in FI cars? i have no engine modifications whatsoever.

 

FORCED INDUCTION VEHICLES will add an additional five (+5) points to the total

number of modification points to determine the final competition class. (Forced induction

vehicles that have been classed or re-classed by the National PT Director based on Dyno

testing are exempt from this additional five (+5) point assessment.)

 

Quoting PT rules, but I assume *cough* TT is the same. The rules are your friend. I was trying to work with a PTF** 1.6L Miata that made maybe at best 90rwhp and everybody was suggesting a dyno reclass. It really is the only/best way to play in TT/PT, IMO.

[kbrew8991]

submit it officially via email - [email protected]

[clydesdale]

Good catch, Eric.

 

We updated the TTS/TTU stuff in the TT Rules, and updated the ST Rules March 1st, but did not update the PT Rules or the base classes (two) that got changed.

 

So, the bottom line is that these two base classes did get changed in February, and are correct as listed in the Provisional Classifications.

 

if this is the case, i'll need to ask for reclassification. a very conservative estimate of my (stock) weight/power ratio is (3520/285) = 12.35. developing oem power, this car is conservatively 599 pounds overweight for TTB (285 x 10.25 = 2921).

 

As you'll soon find, that's not quite how it works-- a turbo reclass won't be remotely close to the class limit. However, you'll most likely recover points to compete in C if you like.

[kevind]

the 135 can be bumped significantly in power with nothing but a tune, which is free points. my 335 made 270ish stock on a mustang dyno (add the 10%), 300 with the JB4 stage 1 map, and 320whp with the JB4 stage 2 map.

 

so 50whp moves you well out of the TTC P/W range anyway... assume the 135i makes 320whp + 10% for mustang modifier, your at 352whp.

 

 

assume you hit your minimum weight, 3370, and assume you run the 245 stock tire, you have +.8 to p/w for the tire, and +.1 for the weight of the car, your looking at a 10.47/1 ratio which isn't legal for TTC. its actually barely legal for TTB.

 

now if your trying to race a completely unprepped 135 with no tune or weight reduction, your looking at 270*1.1 = 297whp, 3510lbs +.8(tires) +.3 (3500+lbs), so 12.9 ratio which is TTC legal. i wouldn't expect a completely stock car to be competitive in any class though... at least in a class where someone else has a prepped car for the class.

[Bnjmn]

You can't use a dyno sheet from a Mustang dyno on a 2wd car