Cheap Wheels

[n80]

I'm doing HPDE right now in a 350Z. It has hard street tires on it that are fine for DD but they are pretty bad at the track. I'd like to get a set of good, soft, street tires like Star specs or similar to use just at the track.

 

So I'll need a set of rims too of course.

 

I don't know if I'll ever race this car and I probably won't but my current game plan is to upgrade my car within the Spec Z rules just in case. So I'll likely buy 18x9's for the front and 18x10's for the rear or maybe just 18x9s on all four corners. It seems like the de facto wheels for Spec Z are Enkei PF-whatevers. They are light and I'm sure they are well made but I'm on a tight budget.

 

So my question is this: What is the downside to buying a basic, cheap, reasonably light wheel like Motegi or something like that? The ones I'm looking at weigh a little less than stock. Is it just the weight (the Enkei wheels are 5 pounds lighter per wheel)? Are they more likely to fail and if so, how?

 

Thanks for any advice.

Edited May 1, 2012 by Guest

[kbrew8991]

cheapest may just be another set of stock wheels....

[n80]

On eBay used OEM 350Z 18" rims are about as much or sometimes more than new rims from the lower end wheel makers like Motegi and Sport. There may be a better place to look. The OEMs are probably better than these off-brand rims but i would like something wider.

 

I'm just wondering if there is a great deal to lose with the cheap rims for someone doing DE who might move up through TT then WTW in the next year or two.

[beerkat]

Get another set of stock wheels and put some Nitto R2 on them.

[t500hps]

I've been looking for a spare set of "stockers" for my Charger (20 x 9) and am finding the same issue with cost. For my car there are a few mustang years where the wheels fit if you open up the hub hole and have found a few guys that track Charger's with aftermarket mustang wheels......which is what I'm likely buying very soon.

I just moved to HPDE3 last weekend and WOW what a difference in driver skill in that group!!!

[MikeAtl]

I've been in a similar situation. I have a G35, so similar wheel fitment, but I am not trying to stay within any spec series rules.

 

Almost all the advice I received included staying with 17" wheels to keep tire cost down. Not sure about the z fitment, but for the G35, Mustang Saleen knockoffs, in 17" or 18" have the same bolt pattern and a similar offset and can be had for relative cheap at

 

http://www.americanmuscle.com/saleenwheels1.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=mustang%2Bsaleen%2Bwheels&utm_campaign=S%2B-%2BWheels%2BSaleen%2BGeneral%2BNo%2BYears&pcrid=8276081097&mkwid=sYT4zBVWY&mkw=mustang%20saleen%20wheels&pmt=e&placement=

 

I am sure they are heavy as heck, but they could work. I was also advised to go with a 9" wide wheel to maximize tire choices, but you have already decided that.

 

I decided to heed the 17" wheel advice and kept looking on the forums. I ended up buying a set of used set of 17x9 Enkei RP01s from a forum member here. I have not gotten tires yet because I need to swap out to longer wheel studs to make the Enkeis work and am waiting to use up my current 225/50/17 Hankook Ventus V110s. I am going with ARP 3" studs and planning on 245/45/17 Star Specs for the new Enkeis.

 

I am beginning to learn that when you change one thing, it affects a bunch of other stuff.

 

Mike

[n80]

I'm going to try to stick with 18s simply because if I ever go to Sepc Z I'll at least be part of the way there. Ten inch rears are allowed in Spec Z but for now I'd prefer a square set up for cost containment and ability to rotate.

 

I am clueless about offset and using wider rims and tires. I know what offset is but don't know when, how much or if I'll need spacers for fitment of any given wheel tire combo. I'll ask those questions over on my350z.com but will need nomex underwear because I'll get flamed for asking that question again......the search feature is highly overrated.

 

I am beginning to learn that when you change one thing, it affects a bunch of other stuff.

 

I had one instructor who was having problems with his very modified vette tell me not to modify anything, ever!

[MikeAtl]

First, go figure out the OEM wheel specs, diameter, width, bolt pattern (will be 5X114.3mm) and offset. You already know the first three.

 

Then, go Google "wheel offset." I cannot give you a textbook definition, but looking at a cross-section of the wheel, it has to do with the distance between the face of the wheel (the surface where the wheel contacts the hub) and the centerline of the entire wheel. It determines how far the wheel/tire extends from the hub, both toward the inside of the car and the outside.

 

I believe the suspension on your Z is very similar to my G. If so, offset is important especially for the front because there is a curved suspension member that extends vertically from the steering knuckle up to the upper A arm. This curved suspension member will contact the wheel/tire if too wide a wheel/tire, or the wrong offset is used.

 

As an example, my G35 OEM wheel specs are for a 17" diameter wheel, 7" wide, with a +45mm offset. This provides about 20mm clearance from the inside surface of the wheel to the curved suspension member.

 

Moving to a 17" diameter wheel, 9" wide, +35 mm offset reduces that clearance to about 5mm. I have not run them yet, but I may add a small spacer if it looks too close.

 

Also important is overall diameter of the wheel/tire. If more than a 3% difference from stock, you will mess with the ABS and stability control.

 

There is a tire size calculator at:

 

http://www.1010tires.com/tiresizecalculator.asp

 

 

and a wheel offset calculator at:

 

http://www.1010tires.com/wheeloffsetcalculator.asp

 

 

 

PM me and I can email you a G35 sedan wheel fitment chart I came across a while back. It may apply to the front suspension of your Z as well.

 

Mike

[beerkat]

 

I had one instructor who was having problems with his very modified vette tell me not to modify anything, ever!

 

That is very good advice, sounds like Khoi.

 

My question to you... Is you Z the base level car? I ask because the wheel size might be different than what is on your car.

[drivinhardz06]

That is very good advice, sounds like Khoi.

 

why didnt' you follow it then?

[beerkat]

why didnt' you follow it then?

 

My Motor is still stock. It is when you start opening up the engine that trouble begins.

 

I need a sticker that reads...Nunnally Prepared or some thing like that.

[n80]

Thanks Mike. I will PM you soon or you can email the chart to me at gebarron at comporium dot net.

 

Kim, my car is the one trim level up from the base model. It has the LSD and a few extra niceties on the inside. Comes stock with 18" rims. And I think the quote came from Josh England. I think he was referring to his Dad's vette....something about new headers.

 

Mike, the tire wheel combo I'm looking at is 18x9 inch wheels with 35mm offset with 275/40/18 tires on all four. The tires will give a nearly identical radius as the stock tires so speedo and ABS will be fine.

 

The offset on the front would be my primary worry and might require a spacer for good clearance. That might have to be a trial and error type thing but I've only got a month before my next track weekend.

 

I have another question. With these rims TireRack lists centering rings, lug wrench and lug bolts (all included at no extra cost). I have no idea what the centering ring is. I'm assuming I'll have to replace the OEM lug bolts. It seems like that will make switching back to stock rims for daily driver use a huge P.I.T.A. Anyone know what the centering ring refers to?

 

I'm beginning to understand why DD and track use don't mix all that well.

[MikeAtl]

George, I am traveling and do not have the wheel chart on this computer. I'll send next week.

 

I have dry fitted the Enkei RP01 17x9 +35 offset wheels (no tire mounted yet) on my hubs and found the following:

 

The hub section of the wheel (not the hub on the car) is so thick that I need to install extended length wheel studs, which are in my garage, but not yet installed. That is going to be another whole can o worms. Not sure how thick the wheel hubs are on your wheels and they may fit fine on the stock wheel studs. One point is that wheel stud replacement to a high tensile strength stud, like ARP, was highly recommended if you plan to continue to track the car. Its only a matter of time before the stock wheel studs start to fail. I noticed this in the form of a good bit of lug nut loosening after each track session. I attribute it to the stud stretching. I am currently on Hankook Ventus 110 EVOs, which are a max summer tire, but only 225 wide. I plan to mount 245/45/17 Star Specs on the new to me Enkeis.

 

On my 2004 G35 sedan, the 9" wheel dry fit shows about 3mm clearance from the inside edge of the wheel to the suspension member I mentioned a couple of posts ago. This is without the tire mounted, but the 245 tire I plan to get will be stretched a bit on the 9" wheel, so it should not make the clearance tighter. Notice I said "should" because I have realized that nothing matters until you actually try to fit things together.

 

To be safe, I did order 3mm spacers in case the fit is too close. I was also advised to install a spacer on each wheel to keep everything symmetrical. A thin spacer, like 3mm should not affect the hub centering (see below) but a thicker spacer would and then you need to consider "hub centric spacers."

 

Again, this may not apply in your case, but if you change to longer wheel studs, then you also need to get an extended or open ended set of lug nuts with the proper mounting face, most likely 60 degree conical. Depends on the wheel. The factory closed lug nuts will not seat on the extended studs. I got a set of Muteki SR48s, which came with a thin wall 17mm socket for installing the nuts on aftermarket wheels (see below).

 

Hub centering rings. Go Google and do some research. The factory hub/wheel on our cars is "hub centric" meaning that the hub diameter of the car matches the center bore diameter of the OEM wheel. You see this when you mount the factory wheel and it centers on the hub. The other possibility is "lug centric" which is where the hub diameter of the car is smaller than the bore diameter of the wheel. This is almost always the case with an aftermarket wheel. To properly torque a "lug centric" setup you need to make sure the lugs are torqued with the wheel off the ground. Going from memory here, for my RP01s, the wheel bore diameter is 72 or 72.1mm, but our car hub diameter is 66.1mm. The centering ring is a plastic or metal piece with an OD that fits in the center bore of the wheel and an ID that mounts to the car hub. It is there only to center the wheel when mounting. There is much debate over whether to go plastic or aluminum. Google will yield pros and cons. I ended up with plastic because it is cheaper and easier to remove if they fuse to the hub from heat.

 

Not sure what they mean by "lug bolts" but they may include the extended or open lug nuts I mentioned above. On the lug wrench, it is probably a thin wall deep 17mm (in my case, did not want splined nuts) socket because many aftermarket wheels, my Enkeis included, have small diameter holes for the lug nuts and a standard deep socket or the factory lug wrench in the spare tire tool kit will not fit. Call tire rack and confirm all this.

 

I think all of this can be avoided if you get a set of OEM wheels to use a track wheels, but that option was not available for me because of the 7" OEM wheel on my car and all of the offset and fitment issues. Also, any good G35 coupe wheels that I found were staggered and I really wanted to stay 4 square.

 

Once I get the studs in and the new wheels/tires mounted, I think I will have reached the point at which I will start trailering the car to events in case something happens. Not only for that reason, but I am going faster and want to keep learning and having an alternative way home is good for peace of mind.

 

I am just learning all this and YMMV, so I urge others to chime in with their wisdom.

 

Mike

[philstireservice]

Thanks Mike. I will PM you soon or you can email the chart to me at gebarron at comporium dot net.

 

Kim, my car is the one trim level up from the base model. It has the LSD and a few extra niceties on the inside. Comes stock with 18" rims. And I think the quote came from Josh England. I think he was referring to his Dad's vette....something about new headers.

 

Mike, the tire wheel combo I'm looking at is 18x9 inch wheels with 35mm offset with 275/40/18 tires on all four. The tires will give a nearly identical radius as the stock tires so speedo and ABS will be fine.

 

The offset on the front would be my primary worry and might require a spacer for good clearance. That might have to be a trial and error type thing but I've only got a month before my next track weekend.

 

I have another question. With these rims TireRack lists centering rings, lug wrench and lug bolts (all included at no extra cost). I have no idea what the centering ring is. I'm assuming I'll have to replace the OEM lug bolts. It seems like that will make switching back to stock rims for daily driver use a huge P.I.T.A. Anyone know what the centering ring refers to?

 

I'm beginning to understand why DD and track use don't mix all that well.

 

 

If it's a 350Z you'll need a 20mm spacer on the front w/ the 18x9 35mm offset Enkei RPF1

[n80]

Thanks Mike that really helps me understand things. You are right, this is quite a can of worms.

 

Phil, thanks. Your recommendation fits what the offset calculator indicated. I don't trust the offset calculator so it is good to know for sure.

 

I've about given up on the cheap wheel angle and I've asked the guys in the Spec Z forum exactly how they are setting up their Enkeis's, including which studs and spacers. This route will cost more but will probably be worth it in the long run.

 

Thanks again.

[n80]

I ended up buying black 18 x 9.5 Enkei RPF1s with +15 offset. They were pricey but I should not need any spacers or longer studs which can run over $300 all together. (Although if I continue to track the car I might eventually get some ARP studs).

 

The primary drawback to these wheels is that if I ever move toward Spec Z they will be useless since you can't run 9.5s up front. But the odds that I'll ever go WTW are fairly low.

 

I will put 265/40/18 tires on all four corners so that I can rotate them. I was hoping to get a set of RS-3s, Star Specs or NT05s but the wheels broke the bank and I ended up with Hankook Ventus evo K112s. They were super cheap ($800 mounted and balanced). They won't be nearly as good as the RS-3 but way better than the all seasons I have on the stock rims.

 

Thanks for all the info.