ST3 Re-visited

[kbrew8991]

sounds like this IS going to happen.

You must have one helluva "jump to conclusions" mat...

 

[davidfarmer]

sounds like this IS going to happen. Personally I still think ST3 should allow aero, knowing that many won't run it since it is less effective on slower cars (high drag, low power).

 

I think the spreads should be even, or close, for power/weight also. So keep ST1 at 5.5, make ST2 7.7, and ST3 9.9

 

Just my opinion, ST rules consistent across the board, evenly spread power-to-weight groupings

Sounds good, but still needs a non-aero adj in ST2 and ST3.

 

I respectfully disagree, ST always allowed aero, and always should.

[kartermdb]

 

I respectfully disagree, ST always allowed aero, and always should.

 

He isn't saying to not allow aero, he is just saying there needs to be another adjustment factor for cars who don't have aero.

 

I have been keeping my eye on this discussion and things are looking good. Hopefully things get sorted out before I have to class my car.

[ILIKETODRIVE]

sounds like this IS going to happen. Personally I still think ST3 should allow aero, knowing that many won't run it since it is less effective on slower cars (high drag, low power).

 

I think the spreads should be even, or close, for power/weight also. So keep ST1 at 5.5, make ST2 7.7, and ST3 9.9

 

Just my opinion, ST rules consistent across the board, evenly spread power-to-weight groupings

Sounds good, but still needs a non-aero adj in ST2 and ST3.

 

I respectfully disagree, ST always allowed aero, and always should.

I think he means that if a car is running zero aftermarket or added upgraded factory aero above BTM, that there should be a mod factor adjustment; just like a car that is FWD gets the benefit of an adjustment.

[Cobra4B]

Nobody said anything about not allowing any aero. Just that there should be a power/weight mod factor for not running any. I.e. Make it 0.4 so if ST-2 is 8.7:1 then I can run 8.3:1 with a completely stock body.

[brkntrxn]

sounds like this IS going to happen.

You must have one helluva "jump to conclusions" mat...

 

 

 

Ken,

 

Were you at Nationals this past week? No? We had quite a few conversations with Greg.

[kbrew8991]

Spill it for those of us less fortunate then....

 

- KB, would've been there if not for a layoff in May

[brkntrxn]

Ken,

 

Yeah, you have had a hard year. From your posts on FB I hope things are looking better for 2013.

 

From all the conversations swirling around our cars last week, it just seems a foregone conclusion that ST3 will happen and PTA will go away. This is our conclusion from multiple conversations with Greg and others. I will say that Greg is still open minded about it and nothing is set in stone. But it does appear to be the direction it is headed.

[drivinhardz06]

I'm game with whatever, just let us know before Hoosier tire cut-off date (Dec 15)

[jason]

My viewpoint: I think the PT system works really really well IF you're building your car from scratch (like I did and like any race car should be ).

 

This.*

 

*(Only your first race car should be built from scratch, after that be smart and buy someone else's)

[kbrew8991]

if this change/realignment does go through (or even if it doesn't) can we also PLEASE re-do the class letters for the top TT classes such that TTU is actually the one with no hp/weight limit (ie unlimited)

[z06tracker]

There are probably 100 opinions in this thread. I don't pretend to know the best answer. Just tell me the rules no later than early November so we have time to prepare for next year.

[Bnjmn]

There are probably 100 opinions in this thread. I don't pretend to know the best answer. Just tell me the rules no later than the end of September so we have time to prepare for next year.

 

fixed.

[ILIKETODRIVE]

My viewpoint: I think the PT system works really really well IF you're building your car from scratch (like I did and like any race car should be ).

 

This.*

 

*(Only your first race car should be built from scratch, after that be smart and buy someone else's)

Fine print = so true

[Cobra4B]

if this change/realignment does go through (or even if it doesn't) can we also PLEASE re-do the class letters for the top TT classes such that TTU is actually the one with no hp/weight limit (ie unlimited)

I agree... always funny that the corresponding TT class for STU was TTR when there was a TTU being used. Also, what is the proposed TT class to mirror ST3? Some us still enjoy instructing, TTing, and winning tires aka Tire Farming.

[yakisoba]

ST3 would correspond to TTA with a lower wt/hp ratio (less power per weight). I think that the newer cars are being hosed by that though. The cars are crazy powerful. Must they go to TTS and be heavily modified? Where does the driver with the new car go from DE, on a modest budget? Mustangs, corvettes, etc. are getting faster. Thus, reducing the wt/hp ratio seems counter intuitive.

[kbrew8991]

Where does the driver with the new car go from DE, on a modest budget? Mustangs, corvettes, etc. are getting faster. Thus, reducing the wt/hp ratio and forcing an open-mods class on them seems counter intuitive.

fixed

[yakisoba]

I'm made of noodles and I approve this message.

[jason]

ST3 would correspond to TTA with a lower wt/hp ratio (less power per weight). I think that the newer cars are being hosed by that though. The cars are crazy powerful. Must they go to TTS and be heavily modified? Where does the driver with the new car go from DE, on a modest budget? Mustangs, corvettes, etc. are getting faster. Thus, reducing the wt/hp ratio seems counter intuitive.

The days of taking a street car from DE to TT and being competitive in any class are over. Hoosier changed that.

[kbrew8991]

ST3 would correspond to TTA with a lower wt/hp ratio (less power per weight). I think that the newer cars are being hosed by that though. The cars are crazy powerful. Must they go to TTS and be heavily modified? Where does the driver with the new car go from DE, on a modest budget? Mustangs, corvettes, etc. are getting faster. Thus, reducing the wt/hp ratio seems counter intuitive.

The days of taking a street car from DE to TT and being competitive in any class are over. Hoosier changed that.

there's a difference between having to do a couple things here & there and completely transforming the car

[Cobra4B]

There's a difference between having to do a couple things here & there and completely transforming the car

So basically... "Hey you guys shouldn't have actually built cars to the fullest extent of the rules we provided." ???

 

I built my car to W2W, but I still enjoy TTing and instructing. So now I should be prevented from TTing because my car is too built? I know you're not stating that explicitly, but that's the road we're going down.

 

Plus, why do you guys assume everyone migrating to TT expects to be in the hunt right off the bat? Even if you're no where close to wining the move from running aimless laps to focused timed ones is huge; at least it was for me.

 

IMO even if I went back to a street car that I tracked and instructed with I'd still run TT for the timing and open track time/passing.

[kbrew8991]

That's not what I'm saying at all and you know that... or at least you should.

 

Are you saying there is no difference in the amount modifications between TTA and TTS? *That* is what I'm driving at.... if we all just go to ST1-8 style classes and force everyone to do full suspension, full aero, etc, etc then I strongly feel there's even less of a draw to come over to TT.

 

Lets look at it this way - I have a regular C5Z06 that I've been doing DE3 with and want to move up to TT.

Will it be easier to:

1.) upgrade tires, do a couple free mods, and then sinch up the belts and drive my ass off to try and win TTA

2.) upgrade tires, suspension, aero, etc and then sinch up the belts and drive my ass off to try and win TTS

 

both would be equally capable of winning, but one is certainly easier to get done.

 

And there is no "TTA" like place for some of the more powerful cars that are becoming more common at trackdays, NASA DE events, etc.... as they all blow well under 8.70s

[Cobra4B]

I see your point... i.e. a points based class for higher power cars to compete in . Once you get past 8.7:1 it's open modding to keep up.

[Kubs]

Maybe there should be an added H class (or whatever the next one after the slowest class is), and everyone moves down one class from where they are. All A cars become B, all B go to C etc. This makes room for a new A with a limit of 7.5:1 or something, but all of the current cars do not have to be reclassed just simply moved down. This would allow the current TTA people to spend another 20pts in which they can do aero if they want, some motor, more tire etc. without being forced into an unlimited class. The faster OEM cars now have a place to play and still be limited by points. Those that want to go full out still have TTS/ST2 as an option. Maybe TTS/ST2 also move to the new 7.5: ratio and the new ST3 will be the 8.7:1. Thoughts?

[kbrew8991]

I see your point... i.e. a points based class for higher power cars to compete in . Once you get past 8.7:1 it's open modding to keep up.

in no way shape or form would I *ever* advocate that a person or a platform get punished soely because they spent more time, effort, and/or money while still working fully within a ruleset.