Varkwso Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 Jeff - I'm not sure about that. I hear from several people around the paddock that a good PTA/TTA build can be over 30K. GIven todays market there have been very good ST2 and other cars in that price range. that is cheap... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 Jeff - I'm not sure about that. I hear from several people around the paddock that a good PTA/TTA build can be over 30K. GIven todays market there have been very good ST2 and other cars in that price range. apples:oranges comparing building cars vs buying pre-built cars Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drivinhardz06 Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 Jeff - I'm not sure about that. I hear from several people around the paddock that a good PTA/TTA build can be over 30K. GIven todays market there have been very good ST2 and other cars in that price range. that is cheap... not including any aero, it's about 30k to do the good mechanicals to go from a PTA vette to a front running ST2 vette. And that's keeping your current tire and wheel sizes. Trust me, I've done the math Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKRBMW Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 Guys, I'm not disputing the cost. Believe me - I know this very well after spending the last 8 months building my car. All I'm trying to say is the current changes have hurt car counts and participation. There is value in considering what needs to be done to bring cars back. I understand there are some T1 cars that will need a home - how many is that? 20? 30? I know there are good numbers in CA, but there are 0 in our neck of the woods. I don't think there have been 3 ST2 cars in a single race in MA and we've had 2-3 in SE. Creating ST3 and keeping everything the same is not likely to really help that. Those of you who've been bumping up to ST2 will detune and run ST3 and everything else remains the same. My point is that won't help bring in new cars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperkins Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 Greg, Any idea on when an official announcement will be made public? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brkntrxn Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 The reality on our Southeast PTA/TTA numbers dropping for this year is because of the threatened Hoosier A6 tire points changes. Several people started testing alternate setups to get a head start on next year and were running ST2/TTS while testing. I think I am going to go ask the SCCA to change ther rules to cater to my PTA car since it appears my NASA class is changing. Think they'll modify their class structure for me like NASA is changing ST2 for the T1 guys? The answer is "No!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra4B Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 Greg,Any idea on when an official announcement will be made public? What he said... I'm pretty much down for a short-block rebuilt until next season (I may be able to make December at Road Atlanta). I want to know what's going on ASAP as there's a bunch I can do to my car for a ST class while it's apart vs. slapping it back together for PTA. Simplify things and focus on car counts. If I'm the customer (which I am) and you're supposed to listen to what I want , my two main demands are: 1. Rules stability 2. Focus all efforts on growing field sizes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted September 17, 2012 Author National Staff Share Posted September 17, 2012 The wheels are grinding. ST2 drivers should get a survey we are sending out. Please reply ASAP. ST3 at 9.0:1 with a -0.5 Mod Factor for Aero is looking like a very real possibility to replace PTA/current TTA rules. Also, BTW, the top two ST2 cars in SoCal (running STR2 as a group to run with the tube-frame Mazda's) is a 996 Porsche and a BMW M3. If the 996 didn't have problems in 2010 at Miller MMP, he was definitely a contender for the ST2 Championship. A 997 Cup Car holds/held many of the TTU/ST1 track records. I'm pretty sure we will see all of them in 2013 when we go back to Miller MMP. Did anyone notice the TTS lap times in Sessions 8 and 9 for the Civic? Yes, he went over the Dyno by one HP in Session 9, but there are clearly other Marques that can play in ST beside Vettes, Vipers, and Evo's/STI's. I think we will be seeing some fast Miatas soon as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra4B Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 Any idea what the base tire size for ST3 would be? I.e. would there be any modification factors for 275s? 9.0 - 0.5 - 0.4 = 8.1 which would be right up my alley running no aero and 275s. I could lighten up the car even more and make around 370 rwhp. 3000 min comp weight / 370 = 8.11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bnjmn Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 And ST2 drops down to what lb/hp level? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obzezzed350 Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 And ST2 drops down to what lb/hp level? This...and what about PTB/C cars that pointed out into PTA that dont have a chance of making that ratio? It seems to me that ST3 will just be ST2 without aero..I think there needs to be a wider spread between ST1-3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted September 17, 2012 Author National Staff Share Posted September 17, 2012 Any idea what the base tire size for ST3 would be? I.e. would there be any modification factors for 275s? 9.0 - 0.5 - 0.4 = 8.1 which would be right up my alley running no aero and 275s. I could lighten up the car even more and make around 370 rwhp. 3000 min comp weight / 370 = 8.11 Nope. You did the calculation wrong. A -0.5 Mod Factor means that you subtract if from your Adjusted Wt/Hp Ratio if you have the Aero. So, no Aero = 9.0:1, and with Aero = 9.5:1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted September 17, 2012 Author National Staff Share Posted September 17, 2012 And ST2 drops down to what lb/hp level? Maybe 8.0:1. ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted September 17, 2012 Author National Staff Share Posted September 17, 2012 And ST2 drops down to what lb/hp level? This...and what about PTB/C cars that pointed out into PTA that dont have a chance of making that ratio? It seems to me that ST3 will just be ST2 without aero..I think there needs to be a wider spread between ST1-3 Joseph, once a car points out of PTB, it would no longer have any of the restrictions of the points system, just the ST Mod Factors. I'm guessing that most of these cars (other than Corvettes), will still run full aero packages and shoot for 9.5:1 Adjusted. Power vs Handling--classic battle--but without a huge advantage in power in this case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obzezzed350 Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 And ST2 drops down to what lb/hp level? This...and what about PTB/C cars that pointed out into PTA that dont have a chance of making that ratio? It seems to me that ST3 will just be ST2 without aero..I think there needs to be a wider spread between ST1-3 Joseph, once a car points out of PTB, it would no longer have any of the restrictions of the points system, just the ST Mod Factors. I'm guessing that most of these cars (other than Corvettes), will still run full aero packages and shoot for 9.5:1 Adjusted. Power vs Handling--classic battle--but without a huge advantage in power in this case. I guess if PTB is 10.25 or so now anyway, that would work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra4B Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 Any idea what the base tire size for ST3 would be? I.e. would there be any modification factors for 275s? 9.0 - 0.5 - 0.4 = 8.1 which would be right up my alley running no aero and 275s. I could lighten up the car even more and make around 370 rwhp. 3000 min comp weight / 370 = 8.11 Nope. You did the calculation wrong. A -0.5 Mod Factor means that you subtract if from your Adjusted Wt/Hp Ratio if you have the Aero. So, no Aero = 9.0:1, and with Aero = 9.5:1. 1. Any idea if there would still be a +0.4 mod factor for 275s? 2. Any ideas what the definition of "aero" will be? Will the body panels have to be 100% OEM stock? I'm curious because I was planning on laying my radiator forward and venting the hood. Something I can currently do in PTA/TTA by taking the +1 point for an air intake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted September 17, 2012 Author National Staff Share Posted September 17, 2012 Any idea what the base tire size for ST3 would be? I.e. would there be any modification factors for 275s? 9.0 - 0.5 - 0.4 = 8.1 which would be right up my alley running no aero and 275s. I could lighten up the car even more and make around 370 rwhp. 3000 min comp weight / 370 = 8.11 Nope. You did the calculation wrong. A -0.5 Mod Factor means that you subtract if from your Adjusted Wt/Hp Ratio if you have the Aero. So, no Aero = 9.0:1, and with Aero = 9.5:1. 1. Any idea if there would still be a +0.4 mod factor for 275s? 2. Any ideas what the definition of "aero" will be? Will the body panels have to be 100% OEM stock? I'm curious because I was planning on laying my radiator forward and venting the hood. Something I can currently do in PTA/TTA by taking the +1 point for an air intake. We are still working on the definition of "aero". I think that the vented hoods and other rules regarding venting fenders that we put into place this year in ST will still be fine. The rule will likely end up allowing any OEM (vs BTM?) aerodynamic aides such as wings, fascias, splitters, side skirts, without a Modification Factor. The question is what to do with a car like the Honda S2000CR and other car models built for the track that come with pretty nice OEM Aero, or just to allow them w/o a mod factor (ie. choose your weapon). There is no discussion of changing the tire size mod factors at this time. Once we handled the outliers, that aspect of the rules still seems to be working well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 The wheels are grinding. ST2 drivers should get a survey we are sending out. Please reply ASAP. ST3 at 9.0:1 with a -0.5 Mod Factor for Aero is looking like a very real possibility to replace PTA/current TTA rules. Greg - will current TTA & PTA people also recieve this survey since this potential change will also most definitely affect them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted September 17, 2012 Author National Staff Share Posted September 17, 2012 The actual survey questions are for ST2 drivers regarding the ST2 Adj. Wt/HP Ratio. So, no. We pulled the PTA numbers, and there is no PTA in Tx. PTA is only significant in AZ, GL, SE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 oh so will this change only be on the WTW side and not affect TT? just trying to get a sense of scope Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Bass Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 Will the aero penalty only apply to ST3 or also to ST2 and ST1? I'm pretty much the only ST2 car in NorCal and I'm fine with bumping down to 8.0:1. I'll see you in October at Buttonwillow. Bill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted September 17, 2012 Author National Staff Share Posted September 17, 2012 oh so will this change only be on the WTW side and not affect TT? just trying to get a sense of scope No it will affect TT also Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 be careful. i have a mustang fr500c that i run very underpowered in aix this season because of the group we have racing in nasa se. next season could easily move me to st2. i would not spend the money to get upgrade my hp to get to 8.0 and st2 would not be an option. i sit at 9.1 to 1 right now but the car has the grand am legal steeda street wing(a low little wing). at 9.5 i would go back to american iron. i want st2 as an option. i suppose i would be open to st3, but i would not restrict my car to run that class when it restricts it back to american iron specs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 oh so will this change only be on the WTW side and not affect TT? just trying to get a sense of scope No it will affect TT also ahh I think I see what you're saying TT will still mirror PT and ST classing and you've already gotten input from people on the PTA to ST3 type split, so you are now currently feeling out ST2 and other people to see if they'd want to see the aero mod factor applied to their class as well - right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bnjmn Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 be careful. i have a mustang fr500c that i run very underpowered in aix this season because of the group we have racing in nasa se.next season could easily move me to st2. i would not spend the money to get upgrade my hp to get to 8.0 and st2 would not be an option. i sit at 9.1 to 1 right now but the car has the grand am legal steeda street wing(a low little wing). at 9.5 i would go back to american iron. i want st2 as an option. i suppose i would be open to st3, but i would not restrict my car to run that class when it restricts it back to american iron specs I think if you leave the wing and use 275s you can stay at 9.1:1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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