ILIKETODRIVE Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 I guess I just dont understand where you think a limited points/class PTA vette that is running same power/weight as AI on stock leafs/no aero and is going FASTER, should be with the mustangs that go slower with full suspension, aero/brakes....lol. AI runs Toyo RA1s, correct? Most/all of the C5 Mafia and other 'vettes run Hoosiers, right? Hmm... ST2 Aero 8.0 wt/hpST2 Non-Aero 7.5 wt/hp ST3 Aero 9.5 wt/hp ST3 Non-Aero 9.0 wt/hp Fixed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 buying a different brand of tire (wear item) is an easier conversion than a full ST-type conversion.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILIKETODRIVE Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 buying a different brand of tire (wear item) is an easier conversion than a full ST-type conversion.... My point was AI cars would be a lot quicker on Hoosiers...and 'vettes in AI on RA1s wouldn't be such an overdog car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrgordonsenior Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 Off topic, what did the SCCA do to the T1 vettes? I thought the revised rules were coming out today: http://www.sccaforums.com/forums/forumid/35/postid/437001/scope/posts That's for STO, T1-3 were posted Friday afternoon..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrgordonsenior Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 Wouldn't it be cool to see a group where Corvettes, Mustangs, Porsche and BMW's can all run in the same class? Yep that's why I run in ST not GTS. We have pretty healthy ST2 fields but that may change next year with the new multipliers. I suspect many of the participants will go to the new ST3 or STR3 especially our large group of Mazda GT cars. Time well tell.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falcon Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 I keep hearing all of this aero talk, as if aero is the only reason ST cars are fast and all I can do is chuckle. Sure aero makes a differance but all of the stuff under the skin of the car is where the real costs are. What's $2k in aero when there are tranny's, suspension, brakes and engines out there that are easily 2 to 4 times that cost? Joel, you're absolutely right, aero is minor compared to the things you sighted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra4B Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 I keep hearing all of this aero talk, as if aero is the only reason ST cars are fast and all I can do is chuckle. Sure aero makes a differance but all of the stuff under the skin of the car is where the real costs are. What's $2k in aero when there are tranny's, suspension, brakes and engines out there that are easily 2 to 4 times that cost? Joel, you're absolutely right, aero is minor compared to the things you sighted. Jody want to buy your spoiler back? I have a wing sitting in the living room that I picked up from Ed Hunter early this year at VIR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJM Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 Joel, you're absolutely right, aero is minor compared to the things you sighted. If you consider $10,000 - $15,000 for a full aero body to be "minor" then you are correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra4B Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 I got a used wing for $350 and can get a splitter and some alumalite for a few hundred more. Then I can vent my stock hood and buy used coilovers online... All that is < $2000. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJM Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 I got a used wing for $350 and can get a splitter and some alumalite for a few hundred more. Then I can vent my stock hood and buy used coilovers online... All that is < $2000. That's fantastic, good for you! No how do those individual parts compare to a full aero body, under tray, and wing developed and tested in a wind tunnel? Did you get setup data with your individual parts? It comes with the full body. I would bet $100 that the $10,000-$15,000 full aero body would win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra4B Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 I got a used wing for $350 and can get a splitter and some alumalite for a few hundred more. Then I can vent my stock hood and buy used coilovers online... All that is < $2000. That's fantastic, good for you! No how do those individual parts compare to a full aero body, under tray, and wing developed and tested in a wind tunnel? Did you get setup data with your individual parts? It comes with the full body. I would bet $100 that the $10,000-$15,000 full aero body would win. That's where my awesome driving skills come into play Also, most of us don't have the time/money to do all the infinite tweaking needed to use the advantages provided by the most expensive parts; law of diminishing marginal returns and all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJM Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 I got a used wing for $350 and can get a splitter and some alumalite for a few hundred more. Then I can vent my stock hood and buy used coilovers online... All that is < $2000. That's fantastic, good for you! No how do those individual parts compare to a full aero body, under tray, and wing developed and tested in a wind tunnel? Did you get setup data with your individual parts? It comes with the full body. I would bet $100 that the $10,000-$15,000 full aero body would win. That's where my awesome driving skills come into play Also, most of us don't have the time/money to do all the infinite tweaking needed to use the advantages provided by the most expensive parts; law of diminishing marginal returns and all. right, but if the rules allow it someone with the time and/or money will do it. Having aero "open" just sets up an arms race. For the new ST3 at least, I think they should use a much higher mod factor. With only a 0.5 mod factor they are essentially saying aero is only worth about 20 RWHP. At many tracks full aero will be a multi-second advantage. That's WAY more than 20 RWHP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra4B Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 I guess my point is that it's not always the guy with all the top end parts that beats everyone. Around here the fastest guys have well prepped cars, but they all turn their own wrenches and most importantly they can drive. Nobody I know has all the top end bells & whistles done to their car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falcon Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 No how do those individual parts compare to a full aero body, under tray, and wing developed and tested in a wind tunnel? Did you get setup data with your individual parts? It comes with the full body. I would bet $100 that the $10,000-$15,000 full aero body would win. Aero has been open in ST2 since 2007 and no one has yet done what you're mentioning. The most developed are just a wing, splitter, undertray and vented hood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJM Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 No how do those individual parts compare to a full aero body, under tray, and wing developed and tested in a wind tunnel? Did you get setup data with your individual parts? It comes with the full body. I would bet $100 that the $10,000-$15,000 full aero body would win. Aero has been open in ST2 since 2007 and no one has yet done what you're mentioning. The most developed are just a wing, splitter, undertray and vented hood. With all due respect....that's pretty much everything (splitter, under tray, hood, wing). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bnjmn Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 He is not talking about a full-body undertray. He is talking about a flat undertray that does not extend beyond the front axle or a slightly contoured one that is an off-the-shelf part. Diffusers are becoming more popular, but seem mostly cosmetic at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erioshi Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 The following has me a bit confused: 12) Revoke all C5 Corvette Dyno re-classes and move the Base classing in the PT and TT Rules to ST/SU (TT1,2,3) I understand the dyno re-class drops, but am not quite sure about the "Base classing" bit. My understanding is that "base classing" wouldn't really matter for an ST car because the classing is done by power to weight. Unless ST vs STR distinctions are somehow being carried over from the base vehicles in the TT/PT rules set. Or perhaps I'm just missing something. My impressions: Overall I think the changes are interesting, and probably mostly forward looking. I still think these changes don't adequately address the disparity between large displacement v8 and v10 engines and small displacement engines. Especially since torque is still not properly addressed. Torque matters - especially when a competitor can choose the competition rpm range of their v8, v10, diesel or electric hybrid and all gearing is free. And the computers are unrestricted - pick your perfect RPM range with a few clicks of a mouse. If I remember correctly, computers are also essentially free now in PT/TT... Single turbo rotary engines were given a +.3 mod factor - without any restriction on displacement or number of rotors. I'm already aware of one single turbo, three rotor car in development. I'm not sure if a rotary with 50% more displacement than stock was considered when designing these rules. I know this engine was built at least partially because torque is not factored into the current rules. The +.3 mod factor for engines of 1.9 liters and less is only for naturally aspirated engines. Since most OE production rotary engines are considered either 1.1 or 1.3 liters, perhaps allow turbocharged (and supercharged) engines of 1.4 liters and smaller that same +.3 mod factor. Or just factor both torque and HP into the classing power numbers and this problem would level itself out naturally. I still believe that both torque and HP should ideally be included when calculating the power to weight of a car, especially when diesels, electric hybrids, and the disparity between very large displacement and very small displacement engines are trying to be equalized under a rules set that allows for unrestricted gearing. An alternative to using individual mod factors based on engine size might be to reduce or eliminate the the table of bonuses and penalties based on vehicle weight. Smaller engines tend to end up in lighter cars, and this might help with the KISS principle by eliminating an new table of engine mod factors. On the other hand, adding an engine mod table could allow for more granular adjustments to individual mod factors. More granularity is probably a very good reason to include engine mod factors. However more mod factors increases the complexity of balancing all of them, and increases the likelihood of unintended consequences. Tough call, but in this case, I would probably opt for granularity over simplicity. (So ignore this paragraph? lol) I am interested in seeing what other new changes may show up in the ST/STR rules. And please don't read too much negativity into these comments, overall I think these changes are mostly positive. Try to keep most of these new tweeks unchanged for a while, and please only adjust individual mod factors on an "as needed" basis rather than try to re-level the classes on a larger scope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falcon Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 No how do those individual parts compare to a full aero body, under tray, and wing developed and tested in a wind tunnel? Did you get setup data with your individual parts? It comes with the full body. I would bet $100 that the $10,000-$15,000 full aero body would win. Aero has been open in ST2 since 2007 and no one has yet done what you're mentioning. The most developed are just a wing, splitter, undertray and vented hood. With all due respect....that's pretty much everything (splitter, under tray, hood, wing). When you said "full" package I thought you were talking about a "full" package. The components I brought up are just some of a "full" aero package. For a "full" package you would need a functional diffuser, full body undertray, canards, aero fenders (front and back), window opening fairings, spoiler, vortex generators, so there's a lot more to do for a "full" than just those 4 parts I mentioned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brkntrxn Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 Jody, Let me know when you have time set up in Roger's tunnel. I need to tag along and blow some air across my duct tape cardboard splitter. Think they can turn down the fan and not blow the yarn strings off my car? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falcon Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 Jody, Let me know when you have time set up in Roger's tunnel. I need to tag along and blow some air across my duct tape cardboard splitter. Think they can turn down the fan and not blow the yarn strings off my car? Oh, I'm sure they have a modulator valve they use to control the flow. That way they can control the blowjob you get. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra4B Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 Jody, Let me know when you have time set up in Roger's tunnel. I need to tag along and blow some air across my duct tape cardboard splitter. Think they can turn down the fan and not blow the yarn strings off my car? Oh, I'm sure they have a modulator valve they use to control the flow. That way they can control the blowjob you get. Can I get one of those valves for my wife? Does it work for nagging too? With all this spending to keep up in these new classes I'm going to need one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlfpkrcn1 Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 I keep thinking... If Shawn was still the National ST director, this discussion would not be happening and all classes would remain the same. Then again, maybe he would have switched ALL PT classes to a ST format. Who knows.... Come to think of it... I would not object to the lower PT classes switching over to ST1-6 format. The points system is really a major PITA. Just a thought E Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brkntrxn Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 Greg, How does the cage rule work considering Cool Suits? I need to get my competition weight up to make it work in ST3 and with the smaller cage tubing I am limited to 3,000lbs car weight. The CCR states "minus fuel and driver". So is a Cool Suit and the ice/water combo considered part of the car and included in that calculation? Kevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted October 11, 2012 Author National Staff Share Posted October 11, 2012 Kevin, I have never heard that question asked, or a discussion about it. Since cars have their annual safety inspections w/o the driver weight calculated, and either with an empty gas tank or some calculation for an empty tank, I would assume that the cool suit ice chest, cool shirt, tubing, along with the driver and all of the other gear he/she has is not included. Is there really a difference between you getting in the car with this gear and totaling out at 230 lbs vs me getting in the car and hitting 230 lbs w/o the gear? Not in my opinion. I suppose it would end up being dependent on the Chief Tech Inspector's opinion, though. But, I've never seen tubing size become an issue after an annual is passed, during a series/class compliance weighing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drivinhardz06 Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 Kevin, I have never heard that question asked What he was asking was, "Can I build a tungsten water cooler for my cool shirt" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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