TT3 - Is anyone planning on it?

[sperkins]

It doesn't take huge $ Penske shocks and other crazy money race car parts for us to murder Mustangs or most anything else for that matter I guess we've already been doing it with our stock engines, stock springs, stock shocks and no aero etc. etc. to the point we've been branded Super-Overdogs.

Sometimes the truth just stings a bit doesn't it?

[Stinger1987]

It doesn't take huge $ Penske shocks and other crazy money race car parts for us to murder Mustangs or most anything else for that matter I guess we've already been doing it with our stock engines, stock springs, stock shocks and no aero etc. etc. to the point we've been branded Super-Overdogs.

Sometimes the truth just stings a bit doesn't it?

 

 

I have been able to more than hold my own against real Z06's (aka not dyno reclass cars)

I never once said a thing about C5Z's being overdog's. I built my car specifically to go and show that C5Z's are not invincible.

 

As I tightened the loose nut behind the wheel it was become obvious that my car and myself can run competitive times on a national level. This was my rookie season and I am running LOW 1:35's at Mid Ohio and I have much room to improve as a driver.

 

I did all that without once complaining about the class rules or corvette overdog's, I just used it as motivation.

 

So feel free to think the Corvette's are untouchable (the ST2 guys did until Dean Martin showed up in a Mustang) but know that a motivated and skilled driver in a well prepared Mustang can reach out and touch you (and I don’t mean body contact LOL)

[Cobra4B]

No no no... I agree with you. I didn't mean to imply that you thought we were overdogs at all. I love what Dean is doing with the Stangs as well as the Phoenix guys in SCCA T1. I want to race against more. A lot of these new class changes are due to the perception that the c5 is a super overdog.

[Stinger1987]

No no no... I agree with you. I didn't mean to imply that you thought we were overdogs at all. I love what Dean is doing with the Stangs as well as the Phoenix guys in SCCA T1. I want to race against more. A lot of these new class changes are due to the perception that the c5 is a super overdog.

 

Ah got ya.

 

I agree with you that I feel that precepetion of C5's had a lot to do with this.

No doubt the C5 Z06 is the best suited car for the current TTA rule package, but if you look at any class in any series there is always a car that fits best. It doesnt mean its the only car that can win!

 

I just wanted a straight fight with the Z06's within the existing rule pack, and I was enjoying it until a dyno reclass car showed up.......

I would give my left arm to put things back as they were, minus the dyno re class and run with you guys it would be great fun for everyone!!!

[Aardwolf]

I guess I'll go with TT3. For my car I do like that the points system isn't holding the car back. I had room for extra weight loss at my power level but couldn't lose it because I had to many points. The points system sometimes lacked relevance on my car. For example taking points for non-stock fuel injectors. The car is 25 years old and that design injector was not good, finding good stock injectors would be problematical. The car must still make pw/wt so things like that didn't make sense to me.

 

I have one of the street cars mentioned above. I'm not sure if it will end up competitive with the C5Z but it's what I have for now and will continue to progress with it.

[Varkwso]

I guess I'll go with TT3. For my car I do like that the points system isn't holding the car back. I had room for extra weight loss at my power level but couldn't lose it because I had to many points. The points system sometimes lacked relevance on my car. For example taking points for non-stock fuel injectors. The car is 25 years old and that design injector was not good, finding good stock injectors would be problematical. The car must still make pw/wt so things like that didn't make sense to me.

 

I have one of the street cars mentioned above. I'm not sure if it will end up competitive with the C5Z but it's what I have for now and will continue to progress with it.

 

 

My old TTB, then TTA, then TTS C5 (not a ZO6) car was driven by the point system (due to repairs mostly) to TTS where I was forced to play with the big boys when they showed up. It is nice TT3 will have a non-Aero option and a little better HP/wt for my car. I will still have to deal with the big boys (and girls) when they show.

[MYRX]

I am in for TT3 for 2013. Like some, my Z06 was points driven into TTS by mods I did before getting involved in TT. The TT3 options could be interesting depending on the route taken. Time for me to get serious and build to a purpose. I think there will be more running TT3 than some think.

[drivinhardz06]

I think there will be more running TT3 than some think.

 

very possibly, but potential farming from ST2/TTS (like yourself) who have a stock body car with lots of mechanical mods, that's easier and cheaper to go from 8.7:1 to 9 than it is to go to 8.7:1 to 8 (lots of weight loss, or more motor)

 

Feb VIR and RA March Entrants list will be interesting to look at

[Greg G.]

Guys, our survey results showed that we will definitely have guys moving from TT2 to TT3. It is one of the reasons that we were ok with these changes in the short term. While we don't want TT2/ST2 to suffer losses, we want TT3/ST3 to get some life back from the start. We see plenty of potential for TT2/ST2 to recover with new participants in the future.

[Cobra4B]

Guys, our survey results showed that we will definitely have guys moving from TT2 to TT3. It is one of the reasons that we were ok with these changes in the short term. While we don't want TT2/ST2 to suffer losses, we want TT3/ST3 to get some life back from the start. We see plenty of potential for TT2/ST2 to recover with new participants in the future.

As I posted in another thread why not avoid the issue completely by just making one class?

 

1. Kill PTA/TTA

 

2. Leave ST2/TT2 at 8.7:1

 

3. Allow a 0.7 modifier for no aero so you can run 8.0:1

[sfteague]

For the cars that might move from TT-B to TT3, going from 10.25 ratio to 8 ratio without aero would be a pretty big jump. I know at least in Norcal TT-B has had lots of cars that will look at it that way, and if the goal is to get lots of new TT3 cars, the announced ratio of 9 or 9.5 with aero is going to be more friendly to moving cars upward in the TT classes.

[Greg G.]

For the cars that might move from TT-B to TT3, going from 10.25 ratio to 8 ratio without aero would be a pretty big jump. I know at least in Norcal TT-B has had lots of cars that will look at it that way, and if the goal is to get lots of new TT3 cars, the announced ratio of 9 or 9.5 with aero is going to be more friendly to moving cars upward in the TT classes.

Bingo, winner, winner, winner!!!!

 

Brian, most PTB/TTB cars run at about 11:1 Adjusted. We have a lot of cars out there in HPDE, TT, and other race classes that would like to join TT and ST that are too powerful for PTB/TTB, but making 8.7:1 is just not a reasonable option. So, the spread at 9.5:1 w/Aero provides what many will need (BMW's, Nissans, Ford's, Porsche's, AWD cars, etc).

[Cobra4B]

For the cars that might move from TT-B to TT3, going from 10.25 ratio to 8 ratio without aero would be a pretty big jump. I know at least in Norcal TT-B has had lots of cars that will look at it that way, and if the goal is to get lots of new TT3 cars, the announced ratio of 9 or 9.5 with aero is going to be more friendly to moving cars upward in the TT classes.

Bingo, winner, winner, winner!!!!

 

Brian, most PTB/TTB cars run at about 11:1 Adjusted. We have a lot of cars out there in HPDE, TT, and other race classes that would like to join TT and ST that are too powerful for PTB/TTB, but making 8.7:1 is just not a reasonable option. So, the spread at 9.5:1 w/Aero provides what many will need (BMW's, Nissans, Ford's, Porsche's, AWD cars, etc).

I get it... I just hope those cars come out. Problem is they all have other classes to run in (other than the subies/mitsus).

 

BMW = GTS and spec classes.

Ford = AI

Porsche = GTS

Nissan = SpecZ

 

I'm leaning heavily toward ST3 in hopes that other marques do move into the class. Time will tell. For many it seems easier to build to the class with the existing participation. Why would a Mustang guy run ST3 when we have 8-15 cars in AI every weekend at VIR? That kind of thing.

 

Any ETA on tire mod factors, base tire size, and weight tables/mod factors?

[JeffJor]

Sadly it looks like there will be no place for many street cars to go.

 

The ST/SU rules say that the ST cars must have a master electric kill switch, and an acceptable racing seat. The acceptable racing seat is going to require at a minimum a harness bar for a 5 point belt because most won't support a factory 3-point.

 

Is it safer? Yes, without a doubt.

But it's not what I want to do to my daily driver. I don't know yet if there will different requirements for the ST3 class.

 

And as others have pointed out, over the last few years TT has become the playground for purpose built, full race cars designed with every advantage to win their TT class. I don't see this changing, and I don't think it's a bad thing. It is what it is. If I wanted to seriously compete in a class, I would plan on building a car to give me the best chance in the class I chose. Myself, I drive for the joy of driving.

 

Since many don't want to build a track only car, and buy a trailer to haul it, and pay to store it somewhere, and don't want to tear apart the inside of their car to meet new class requirements, where do they fit in?

[kbrew8991]

Uhh, not quite. The car-classing formula for the ST classes will carry over to the new TT1-3 classes, but no safety rules. Just look at current ST1 & ST2 as compared to TTU & TTS... formulae are the same for the two versions but not the race-required safety stuff. That's not going to change. TT always has been considered the top level of HPDE and thus follows the minimum safety requirements from there, not from the racer's section of the CCRs.

 

That said yes, the popularity of TT in general brings out more people and with that the bar gets raised... from TTR down through lowly TTF. As the bar is raised you've gotta prepare the car closer to the bleeding edge... it's the same in any form of racing out there and not a whole lot anyone can do about it.

[Greg G.]

Ken is correct (that always makes me laugh when I say that )

 

Jeff, I'm not sure why you came up with that conclusion. The TT Rules have never required the ST racing safety equipment. The classing rules are the same, but the safety rules are very different. An STx car can cross directly over to TTx, but a TTx car cannot cross into ST without doing some serious safety modifications.

[JeffJor]

Exactly, and maybe that's where my misunderstanding comes in. It's my understanding that the TTA class is becomming the TT3 class, which, after 2013 or if competing nationally, will be considered ST3 cars. Making them subject to the ST rules and not TT rules. Based on the replies from you and Ken, it sounds more like ST3 and TT3 are only sharing classing rules and TT3 is not becomming a ST3 class.

 

So a 2012 TTA car just uses a ST Classification Form for 2013 to be able to compete regionally and nationally, but abides by the TT rules.

Hopefully I have it right now.

 

Thanks for the replies.

If I still have it wrong, please let me know.

[kbrew8991]

SU, ST, and PT have only ever shared *classing* rules with TT_ since they were all formed/started/whatnot. Unlikely to change in the future as well and definitetly not changing for 2013/14ish.

 

Meaning an SU car can also be a TTR car but not always vice-versa. Same with ST1 and TTU, ST2 and TTS, PTA-F and TTA-F currently as well.

 

With this ST3/TT3 replacing TTA/PTA shakeup some of the class lettering is changing around to match up more easily (SU & TTU, ST1 & TT1, PT_ & TT_, etc) but not the fundamentals like safety requirements for TT, Racing and whatnot.

 

I think your confusion is coming from a currently TTA car being allowed to run in new TT3 regionally by points in 2013, but after that they'd have to be in TT3 by hp/weight ratio. They would not need to convert to ST3 safety, although it might not be a bad idea for anyone and everyone to look at the speeds they're going, proximity to bad ju-ju stuff to bump into at the tracks they run at, etc and make sure their safety equipment makes good sense for all those factors for sure.

 

Hope that helps!

[Stinger1987]

I actually drive my car to work 3-4 times per week with a full containment Recaro seat, six point harnesses and a 4 point (B-pillar back) cage.

 

So I understand the bleeding edge part of this.

 

However the points system ensured that what ever I ran against would at least be realistically my speed.

 

Hell they even had a line in the classification form that stated if retail cost of a shock was over a certain dollar amount (I think it was $1,300) or had external reservoirs it was extra points.

 

So sure I was racing against PTA race cars but at least that race car didn’t have mega buck trick full race dampers, or if he did he had to make a serious sacrifice somewhere else to "afford" them points wise!

 

 

Next season I will let the time sheets do the talking for me when a whole bunch of depowered ST2 cars come in and start beating every TTA track record every time they go out. Sure I will get faster because I will improve as a driver but it wont be competitive. No street car will be competitive anymore and they were competitive before

[Varkwso]

I actually drive my car to work 3-4 times per week with a full containment Recaro seat, six point harnesses and a 4 point (B-pillar back) cage.

 

So I understand the bleeding edge part of this.

 

However the points system ensured that what ever I ran against would at least be realistically my speed.

 

Hell they even had a line in the classification form that stated if retail cost of a shock was over a certain dollar amount (I think it was $1,300) or had external reservoirs it was extra points.

 

So sure I was racing against PTA race cars but at least that race car didn’t have mega buck trick full race dampers, or if he did he had to make a serious sacrifice somewhere else to "afford" them points wise!

 

 

Next season I will let the time sheets do the talking for me when a whole bunch of depowered ST2 cars come in and start beating every TTA track record every time they go out. Sure I will get faster because I will improve as a driver but it wont be competitive. No street car will be competitive anymore and they were competitive before

 

Our TTA is often faster then ST2 and TTS now.

[Varkwso]

TT3 will be faster.

[Bnjmn]

Before anyone gets too fatalistic, a non-aero (street-ish) car has a chance. Here are some numbers:

 

~9.2 - my lb/hp at nationals

~8.35 - the TTA lb/hp limit (on 275s)

~8.6 - the non-aero TT3 limit (on 275s)

 

The ST2 cars bumping down to TT3 are likely only going to get slower whereas non-aero TTA cars should pick up speed (seems like a given, now that most mods are free). Every track and car is different, but it certainly isn't lights out.

 

Under the prior rules, many cars needed to lose the interior, etc if they wanted to meet minimum weight. The sliding scale now allows you to run at whatever weight you want and bump your hp to match. All cars should be able to meet the lb/hp limit under TT3 (given that engine mods are free), which was much less common under TTA.

[Varkwso]

Before anyone gets too fatalistic, a non-aero (street-ish) car has a chance. Here are some numbers:

 

~9.2 - my lb/hp at nationals

~8.35 - the TTA lb/hp limit (on 275s)

~8.6 - the non-aero TT3 limit (on 275s)

 

The ST2 cars bumping down to TT3 are likely only going to get slower whereas non-aero TTA cars should pick up speed (seems like a given, now that most mods are free). Every track and car is different, but it certainly isn't lights out.

 

Under the prior rules, many cars needed to lose the interior, etc if they wanted to meet minimum weight. The sliding scale now allows you to run at whatever weight you want and bump your hp to match. All cars should be able to meet the lb/hp limit under TT3 (given that engine mods are free), which was much less common under TTA.

 

 

There are literally hundreds of combos to experiment with in this new formula. I think there will be some interesting combos and many will be fast.

[Hazman]

Edited October 27, 2012 by Guest

[toomchpwr]

Welcome to TT3. Get your wallet out or go home!

 

 

 

so true and that is my gripe as well.