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TT3 - Is anyone planning on it?

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kbrew8991

"Prep wins championships"

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evojim

I haven't been on here much lately, family stuff has sorta blown the last 1/2 of 2012 for me. But trying to catch up on this new TT classing stuff.

 

With the new TT3 class, that is probably where me and my Evo will end up. I could not see any way with the points system to run in TTA and hang with the C5Z's at Road Atl. I wasn't complaining about it, just accepted it as the way it was. Figured it would be easier (but more expensive) to just work my car towards TTS knowing I would not be competitive for a while.

 

The TT3 thing opens up a new avenue to pursue. The HP limit and aero rules should keep some of the costs under control. I still would enjoy measuring myself against some of the top drivers from the TTA group in SE, even though I will be schooled Now maybe I can do so on a fairly level playing field.

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Vettedoctor
With a '90's Civic being the fastest car in TTS

Don't forget a '90's Civic was winning and almost won TTS at Nationals in '09 as well.

 

Wow I missed these little jems - those cars were both plenty fast but what kind of car actually won TTS in 2009 and in 2012?

 

Oh that's right see below!

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Varkwso

Curious to see who wins TT3/ST3 regionally and nationally. Nationals will depend who from the east and west make the long trek.

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Z06cool
Curious to see who wins TT3/ST3 regionally and nationally. Nationals will depend who from the east and west make the long trek.

 

I think the usual suspects for the SE/MA regionally.

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brkntrxn
I haven't been on here much lately, family stuff has sorta blown the last 1/2 of 2012 for me. But trying to catch up on this new TT classing stuff.

 

With the new TT3 class, that is probably where me and my Evo will end up. I could not see any way with the points system to run in TTA and hang with the C5Z's at Road Atl. I wasn't complaining about it, just accepted it as the way it was. Figured it would be easier (but more expensive) to just work my car towards TTS knowing I would not be competitive for a while.

 

The TT3 thing opens up a new avenue to pursue. The HP limit and aero rules should keep some of the costs under control. I still would enjoy measuring myself against some of the top drivers from the TTA group in SE, even though I will be schooled Now maybe I can do so on a fairly level playing field.

 

I am curious as to what type of things you are now going to do or spend your money on that will make you more competitive in ST3 vs the TTA rule set before? Not challenging you, just trying to get a picture of the diversity of the new class.

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brkntrxn
Curious to see who wins TT3/ST3 regionally and nationally. Nationals will depend who from the east and west make the long trek.

 

I think the usual suspects for the SE/MA regionally.

 

I agree. None of us are going to outspend Mark/Scott/Brian's parts bins and driving talent. Nothing has changed, they now have free rein and will be unbeatable.

 

If and when I show up, it will be in heavy PTA trim.

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32EVOIX

Well late to the game as usual but took the time to read all 11 pages of posts. I guess I am confused, now more than ever. So here is my 2 cents; it is my opinion or at least on how I preserved TT several years ago when I got involved, that it is a venue to compete with your street car instead of racing or as a means to racing. Personally, I got involved and purchased my Evo as my daily driver and the dual purpose to compete in some sort of motor sport with the same car without building a race car. It has served me well through the years many track records, championships etc. That being said the rule sets keep changing through the years to favor more and more a dedicated race car for TT. In the ’11 Nationals we had, if memory serves close to 20 cars in TTA and if I am not mistaken my car was the only car without a cage and gutted, also the only car that I know that is driven daily with full interior, (someone correct me if I got that wrong). Now this new rule set once again emphasizes a purpose built car. I did not ever see a problem with the C5’s and I have stated so in the past, I believe that it was a combination of great builds and drivers, and I might add there were 2 of us with Evo’s at the Nationals in ’11 and finished 3rd and 5th so no complaints. The point is, that if I am not mistaken the changes were made to improve TT participation as it was low and dropping through the years. I would respectfully say that is the biggest bit of nonsense I have ever heard. What got people in TT is the ability to use their street cars that they were running in HPDE to compete and not commit to a full race car, a trailer, a truck, and a place to store all that which we all know is big bucks. It seems to me unless I am missing something here that once again we are moving away from street cars. If my understanding is correct TT participation will continue to drop until it is all but gone. I don’t know about most of you guys but if I am building a race car it is going to WTW not TT.

 

Someone mentioned or at least implied that their Evo’s could not be competitive in TTA without major modifications. Again, hogwash, my Evo has minimal mods and was quite competitive in TTA at all levels.

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32EVOIX
Curious to see who wins TT3/ST3 regionally and nationally. Nationals will depend who from the east and west make the long trek.

It is going to be the same people, as always because they are best at building their cars to the rule sets, and they are the best drivers. Every time someone changes the rules to achieve parity, it never happens. F1 has been trying to slow the cars down for decades and look at the results. If, and I know this has been denied, these rules had something to do with eliminating some perceived advantage for the C5’s in TTA, I will guarantee you that the same people will continue to run at the front, that is if they decide to continue to play.

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drivinhardz06
Every time someone changes the rules to achieve parity, it never happens. F1 has been trying to slow the cars down for decades and look at the results.

 

Not really anything to do with this thread, but last time I was at Penske Racing Shocks among other things was spending time with some of their engineers. A lot of the guys there came from the Penske Indycar program from the CART heyday. One of the guys there was saying "Hey, in the 90s, we all got to build our own chassis, aero bits, engine/gearbox combo, etc...look who won all the time. Now it's all spec stuff, and guess what, who's still winning all the time? Same guys/teams "

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drivinhardz06
Curious to see who wins TT3/ST3 regionally and nationally. Nationals will depend who from the east and west make the long trek.

 

The aero/non-aero race is going to be fun to watch and play around with, in TT and in ST (different animals) especially among same model/type cars, and various tracks (high speed, low speed)

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kbrew8991

Jimmy - it's not the ruleset that puts more emphasis on a purpose-built car... it's the series growing in popularity that is driving up the prep level to win. Now granted the switch to TT3 style rules vs TTA is going to raise the bar of the prep level needed to win, but that horse has already bolted from the barn, the barn has burned down, and already been rebuilt for us to set fire to again the way this change was pushed through so rapidly.

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brkntrxn

Purple Crack is what caused the rise and fall of participation and prep levels in Time Trials. In my opinion.

 

Without Hoosier contingency, there was no need to prep to the gills to win a coffee cup or plaque. Once the bounty of $1400 worth of tires could be won in a weekend, competition invariably ramped up by "those that could". You know, it makes sense to spend $10k to win $1k -- all racing is that way. This was the RISE.

 

When Hoosier reduced the overall contingency program last year, the people that normally raced for 3rd place decided to not participate or DE only. No need in wasting a ton of money chasing a coffee cup or plaque. Kinda like it was before Purple Crack showed up. This was the FALL.

 

And now you know how obamanomics and romnancials work.

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ILIKETODRIVE
Purple Crack is what caused the rise and fall of participation and prep levels in Time Trials. In my opinion.

 

Without Hoosier contingency, there was no need to prep to the gills to win a coffee cup or plaque. Once the bounty of $1400 worth of tires could be won in a weekend, competition invariably ramped up by "those that could". You know, it makes sense to spend $10k to win $1k -- all racing is that way.

100% true in AZ from '08-'11.

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jason

I drove my car to autox's and HPDE's for years. I drove it to one TT weekend and knew I needed to bring something else to drive home. The competition just completely changed the level of risk.

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jcindric

TT in the GL region compared to the generic description of being included in HPDE will amaze many people. Besides the race groups who also run in TT, just look at the cars and preparation. A street car has no chance, and I think TT in the GL and MW regions illustrates how this is a separate class, clearly distinct from HPDE, and yet not a racing class. I wouldn't want TT any other way

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Varkwso
I drove my car to autox's and HPDE's for years. I drove it to one TT weekend and knew I needed to bring something else to drive home. The competition just completely changed the level of risk.

 

And that was running against complete interior and mostly unprepped cars....the good old days when track records were set on NT01s...

 

Great memories of watching the "spy vs spy" run at Barber!

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drivinhardz06
I drove my car to autox's and HPDE's for years. I drove it to one TT weekend and knew I needed to bring something else to drive home. The competition just completely changed the level of risk.

 

The March 2009 RA event didn't have contingency...May 2009 CMP event did. There was a whole nuther level of intensity for CMP, if I could find the video in the midst of 5 million hrs of footage, you can literally hear me laughing out loud as we both are going around the backside of CMP sideways hard on the gas and some comment of the effect of "we are going to wreck both of these cars for $1300 in tires"

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evojim

Gutting and caging a car for TT is not neccesarily about performance. I am still slow compared to most of these guys, but I will be caging my car out very soon for one reason, safety. It's fine to lament about 'street cars with full interiors' running in TT, but, even in DE you are always a cut tire or one lapse in judgement away from the wall at a place like Road Atl. And being out there in an even midly prepped Vette/Evo/TTA-S-3 ride you are going plenty fast enough to get killed.

 

That said, I still think TT needs to be optional for cage/hans/harnesses/etc in order to get people in DE3/4 to give it a try. And if you are comfortable without the full racecar safety setup, great. But the fully gutted-caged thing is more about safety IMHO than performance. Believe me,it is an act of will to spend my next upgrade money on a cage instead of more go-fast goodies.

Edited by Guest

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sperkins
Purple Crack is what caused the rise and fall of participation and prep levels in Time Trials. In my opinion.

 

Without Hoosier contingency, there was no need to prep to the gills to win a coffee cup or plaque. Once the bounty of $1400 worth of tires could be won in a weekend, competition invariably ramped up by "those that could". You know, it makes sense to spend $10k to win $1k.

I agree 100%, but I'd like to add a couple of things. There are many other contingencies that are offered by other manufacturers across many classes that certainly sweeten the pot for the front runners, but certainly tires are the highest cost to most amatuer racers so a nice tire contingency is definitely an incentive to win or place well. With that said, it's not the only reason for some.

For me personally, I would have prepped just as hard without any contingency because the desire to win is something that I just can't suppress (not that I've ever shown it ).

 

I really enjoy the "engineering" side of the game too. I had a lot of fun working inside that box of TT/PT rules, but towards the end, I got really bored with not being able to substantially develop the car without throwing parts at it so I was planning on moving to ST2/TTS anyway. I don't pretend for a minute that I would have been as competitive in those higher classes, but I really looked forward to the challenge.

 

I think you're right to say that the revised 2012 Hoosier payouts affected the car counts, but I wouldn't blame them for ruining TT as a whole. If you look back 4 years ago, car counts weren't nearly as high as they were after the contingency was announced. I can't count the number of events that TT was so full that they had to close registration several weeks in advance.

I think that it eventually ran it's course and after a while some folks that knew they weren't going to win didn't even bother to try. It would be easy to say that you can't blame them for that, but I do. I try to win every time I go out. Is that wrong?

I think Mark summed it up perfectly last year in his Champion video when he said 'The car is only going to be as good as the effort that you put into it'.

Man...did I start rambling or what?

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evojim

Someone mentioned or at least implied that their Evo’s could not be competitive in TTA without major modifications. Again, hogwash, my Evo has minimal mods and was quite competitive in TTA at all levels.

 

What kind of lap times do you turn at Road Atl in TTA trim?

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drivinhardz06

For me personally, I would have prepped just as hard without any contingency because the desire to win is something that I just can't suppress (not that I've ever shown it ).

 

On old junk tires (no contingency), a really well set-up car still beats an average car to (I have driven both, example A is 5 secs/lap between the 2 at Road Atlanta).

 

In fact GETTING the car really set up nice was the only way you could take old A6's and get them to be fast, even when they were old old and cording. Before that, you were Schumacher for 2 sessions and then hanging on for dear life the rest of the time.

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drivinhardz06
Gutting and caging a car for TT is not neccesarily about performance

 

A cage for sure isn't, with a good chassis to start with, you are simply adding a lot of weight exactly where you don't want it, up high. I took a full year (after the cage) of further tweaking on my car to get it to run lap times equal to or better than what it did before the cage.

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evojim

For me personally, I would have prepped just as hard without any contingency because the desire to win is something that I just can't suppress (not that I've ever shown it ).

 

On old junk tires (no contingency), a really well set-up car still beats an average car to (I have driven both, example A is 5 secs/lap between the 2 at Road Atlanta).

 

In fact GETTING the car really set up nice was the only way you could take old A6's and get them to be fast, even when they were old old and cording. Before that, you were Schumacher for 2 sessions and then hanging on for dear life the rest of the time.

 

I think that about sums up where I am in this process.

 

Still trying to wrap my head around you running in the 2:01 range at VIR on 245's.

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drivinhardz06

Still trying to wrap my head around you running in the 2:01 range at VIR on 245's.

 

Aggressively tip toe'ing

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