TT3 - Is anyone planning on it?

[32EVOIX]

Jimmy - it's not the ruleset that puts more emphasis on a purpose-built car... it's the series growing in popularity that is driving up the prep level to win. Now granted the switch to TT3 style rules vs TTA is going to raise the bar of the prep level needed to win, but that horse has already bolted from the barn, the barn has burned down, and already been rebuilt for us to set fire to again the way this change was pushed through so rapidly.

Perhaps you are right, but none the less I feel strongly what made NASA superior was the opportunity to compete with your street car and get your feet wet sort of speak before you jump in with car, trailer etc. My understanding is that TT counts are down nation wide; certainly they are pathetic here in Florida. We got tired of going around burning thousands in tires and brakes etc to better our own track records. It is sad, because years ago we had a tremendous amount of people in TT. On the other hand regions like SE and MA are having great success in attracting a bunch of cars. Perhaps it is something we are doing wrong down here, please jump in with some comments because at the end of the day we want to improve the club.

[32EVOIX]

Purple Crack is what caused the rise and fall of participation and prep levels in Time Trials. In my opinion.

 

Without Hoosier contingency, there was no need to prep to the gills to win a coffee cup or plaque. Once the bounty of $1400 worth of tires could be won in a weekend, competition invariably ramped up by "those that could". You know, it makes sense to spend $10k to win $1k -- all racing is that way. This was the RISE.

 

When Hoosier reduced the overall contingency program last year, the people that normally raced for 3rd place decided to not participate or DE only. No need in wasting a ton of money chasing a coffee cup or plaque. Kinda like it was before Purple Crack showed up. This was the FALL.

 

And now you know how obamanomics and romnancials work.

Kevin,

 

The Hoosier contingency sure made it extremely attractive, but for me the competition is the key. I love to compete, like Coach Edwards said “you play the game to win”. I personally have no interest in going around in meaningless laps; if I did, I would go to one of those other clubs where it is less money. Which is what I think is going on.

[32EVOIX]

Gutting and caging a car for TT is not neccesarily about performance. I am still slow compared to most of these guys, but I will be caging my car out very soon for one reason, safety. It's fine to lament about 'street cars with full interiors' running in TT, but, even in DE you are always a cut tire or one lapse in judgement away from the wall at a place like Road Atl. And being out there in an even midly prepped Vette/Evo/TTA-S-3 ride you are going plenty fast enough to get killed.

 

That said, I still think TT needs to be optional for cage/hans/harnesses/etc in order to get people in DE3/4 to give it a try. And if you are comfortable without the full racecar safety setup, great. But the fully gutted-caged thing is more about safety IMHO than performance. Believe me,it is an act of will to spend my next upgrade money on a cage instead of more go-fast goodies.

Without question safety is a major issue, as a father of 3 I take it very seriously, but you can get hurt in a miata. But that is not the point I was trying to make, simply put in a HP/WT class I think you will agree that if I could afford a set of Moton or JRZ 4-way adjustable coil-overs instead of my 5 year old Tein mono-flex it would make a substantial difference, don’t you think? But I don’t have what I think is 15-20K. That is my point. Just look at TTS and TTA, both were 8.7 to1 HP/WT, what do you think made a TTS car faster that is my point. There are so many things I could do to an Evo without ever touching the engine that would make the car a rocket and very tough to beat in T2 or T3. But it is big dollars.

[32EVOIX]

Someone mentioned or at least implied that their Evo’s could not be competitive in TTA without major modifications. Again, hogwash, my Evo has minimal mods and was quite competitive in TTA at all levels.

 

What kind of lap times do you turn at Road Atl in TTA trim?

I really wish I could tell you, I have not been to RA for I think over 4 years now. I have wanted to go as it is one of my favorite tracks but there is always something. I have no idea what I could run but I am sure I could hold my own with the Mafia. I am loosely looking at Dec but it is a long shot. Again, I love the competition and those guys are great I would love to play with them.

[32EVOIX]

Gutting and caging a car for TT is not neccesarily about performance

 

A cage for sure isn't, with a good chassis to start with, you are simply adding a lot of weight exactly where you don't want it, up high. I took a full year (after the cage) of further tweaking on my car to get it to run lap times equal to or better than what it did before the cage.

I would go on a limb here and say it can go both ways. Yes you are adding weight up top, however you are making the car extremely rigid and that is why you have to tweak it. Ultimately, the gain IMHO is far greater than the loss. Not to mention a safer car.

[32EVOIX]

Still trying to wrap my head around you running in the 2:01 range at VIR on 245's.

 

Aggressively tip toe'ing

It was the cage

[kbrew8991]

focus on doing things that make it fun - chasing old TRs could be the way to go, or maybe just highlight having a good finish and a good fair fight in the here & now..?

[32EVOIX]

focus on doing things that make it fun - chasing old TRs could be the way to go, or maybe just highlight having a good finish and a good fair fight in the here & now..?

Went Spec Miata racing instead. The Evo is semi-retired, I may bring it out and play at RA,VIR once in a blue moon when I can make it. I always have fun at the race track; it is the primary ingredient to this sport.

[evojim]

Without question safety is a major issue, as a father of 3 I take it very seriously, but you can get hurt in a miata. But that is not the point I was trying to make, simply put in a HP/WT class I think you will agree that if I could afford a set of Moton or JRZ 4-way adjustable coil-overs instead of my 5 year old Tein mono-flex it would make a substantial difference, don’t you think? But I don’t have what I think is 15-20K. That is my point. Just look at TTS and TTA, both were 8.7 to1 HP/WT, what do you think made a TTS car faster that is my point. There are so many things I could do to an Evo without ever touching the engine that would make the car a rocket and very tough to beat in T2 or T3. But it is big dollars.

 

I hear you. I am also a father of 3. I am running some old Muellerized JIC's that are just not up to what the Evo on Hoosiers puts them through. But I also cannot afford 4-way JRZ's. Here in SE, the TTS field is generally no faster then the TTA field. If some of the serious TTS people show up, yes they will be faster. But looking around a lot of people running TTS are there because their rides cannot be easily set up to compete in TTA. For me, I had my Evo for a few years before I ever started the track thing. As such by the time I even thought about TT, several things had been changed. Built tranny with the Evo 8 3rd and 4th gears, JDM rear bumper, WHiteline RCK and Bumpsteer kilt all were mods that cost points, but are not really 'useful' points towards being competitive in TTA (following Nate's example). So at that point, I was faced with either de-modding the car to reclaim points to get closer to something like Nate's TTA blueprint or going to TTS, which I chose.

 

And on the trailer thing, I started trailering my car back in my DE2 days. Outside of Nashville (which is now closed), I am driving 4-9 hours to get to a track. Even not counting accidents, I saw enough people many hours from home, break their car and have no way back to the house. Murphy's law says if I trailer it, I probably won't need a trailer, but if I don't I will. Being at CMP (9 hours from home) with a broken or wrecked car and no truck/trailer to get it back to TN was not an appealing thought to me.

[Varkwso]

Without question safety is a major issue, as a father of 3 I take it very seriously, but you can get hurt in a miata. But that is not the point I was trying to make, simply put in a HP/WT class I think you will agree that if I could afford a set of Moton or JRZ 4-way adjustable coil-overs instead of my 5 year old Tein mono-flex it would make a substantial difference, don’t you think? But I don’t have what I think is 15-20K. That is my point. Just look at TTS and TTA, both were 8.7 to1 HP/WT, what do you think made a TTS car faster that is my point. There are so many things I could do to an Evo without ever touching the engine that would make the car a rocket and very tough to beat in T2 or T3. But it is big dollars.

 

I hear you. I am also a father of 3. I am running some old Muellerized JIC's that are just not up to what the Evo on Hoosiers puts them through. But I also cannot afford 4-way JRZ's. Here in SE, the TTS field is generally no faster then the TTA field. If some of the serious TTS people show up, yes they will be faster. But looking around a lot of people running TTS are there because their rides cannot be easily set up to compete in TTA. For me, I had my Evo for a few years before I ever started the track thing. As such by the time I even thought about TT, several things had been changed. Built tranny with the Evo 8 3rd and 4th gears, JDM rear bumper, WHiteline RCK and Bumpsteer kilt all were mods that cost points, but are not really 'useful' points towards being competitive in TTA (following Nate's example). So at that point, I was faced with either de-modding the car to reclaim points to get closer to something like Nate's TTA blueprint or going to TTS, which I chose.

 

And on the trailer thing, I started trailering my car back in my DE2 days. Outside of Nashville (which is now closed), I am driving 4-9 hours to get to a track. Even not counting accidents, I saw enough people many hours from home, break their car and have no way back to the house. Murphy's law says if I trailer it, I probably won't need a trailer, but if I don't I will. Being at CMP (9 hours from home) with a broken or wrecked car and

no truck/trailer to get it back to TN was not an appealing thought to me.

 

 

I was once stuck with a broken car and no trailer. I have also been stuck with broken trailers and broken tow vehicles. This is not a sport for the $$$ averse crowd.

[Varkwso]

Replacing my LS1 cracked head with LS6 heads, since I had them, put me out of TTA in my FRC and into TTS. It was not always the fastest but it was the most reliable...TT3 prep has me wondering if I will continue to run my 2006 classed TTB car, 2007 classed TTA car and 2010 classed TTS car in the 2013 TT3 class. A refit will be needed and I am not sure that is worth the climb. I can be pack filler as is.

[Cobra4B]

Gutting and caging a car for TT is not neccesarily about performance

 

A cage for sure isn't, with a good chassis to start with, you are simply adding a lot of weight exactly where you don't want it, up high. I took a full year (after the cage) of further tweaking on my car to get it to run lap times equal to or better than what it did before the cage.

I would go on a limb here and say it can go both ways. Yes you are adding weight up top, however you are making the car extremely rigid and that is why you have to tweak it. Ultimately, the gain IMHO is far greater than the loss. Not to mention a safer car.

Not really the case with a C5.... the car is already extremely rigid.

[sperkins]

Not really the case with a C5.... the car is already extremely rigid.

My cage is made of helium filled PVC pipe painted black.

[jason]

My cage is made of NOS filled PVC pipe painted black.

Fixed.

[sperkins]

My cage is made of NOS filled PVC pipe painted black.

Fixed.

NOS? I thought that's what the accusump tank was for.

[Cobra4B]

My cage is made of NOS filled PVC pipe painted black.

Fixed.

NOS? I thought that's what the accusump tank was for.

And the firebottle and the cool-shirt cooler

[drivinhardz06]

And the firebottle and the cool-shirt cooler

 

the hydroformed rails hold a lot of cubic volume of anything

[Varkwso]

And the firebottle and the cool-shirt cooler

 

the hydroformed rails hold a lot of cubic volume of anything

 

Just don't run exhaust or brake ducts through those rails....

[BadBoyZ]

Not really the case with a C5.... the car is already extremely rigid.

My cage is made of helium filled PVC pipe painted black.

 

Note to self....

 

Haha

[yooper]

Purple Crack is what caused the rise and fall of participation and prep levels in Time Trials. In my opinion.

 

Without Hoosier contingency, there was no need to prep to the gills to win a coffee cup or plaque. Once the bounty of $1400 worth of tires could be won in a weekend, competition invariably ramped up by "those that could". You know, it makes sense to spend $10k to win $1k -- all racing is that way. This was the RISE.

 

When Hoosier reduced the overall contingency program last year, the people that normally raced for 3rd place decided to not participate or DE only. No need in wasting a ton of money chasing a coffee cup or plaque. Kinda like it was before Purple Crack showed up. This was the FALL.

 

And now you know how obamanomics and romnancials work.

Kevin,

 

The Hoosier contingency sure made it extremely attractive, but for me the competition is the key. I love to compete, like Coach Edwards said “you play the game to win”. I personally have no interest in going around in meaningless laps; if I did, I would go to one of those other clubs where it is less money. Which is what I think is going on.

 

I am one of those that has been doing the meaningless laps for a few years. Couple of questions.

 

What is the entry fee for TT3 and ST3 in the midwest/great lakes region, and how much actual track time do you get per day per class?

Same question for TT2 and ST2?

Same question for HPDE4

If the average involvement in club racing is 5 years, how can I double my seat time and still use one car?

 

I just switched from a taxi cab to a caged 04 C5Z and really like competitive seat time.

Thanks

[32EVOIX]

Purple Crack is what caused the rise and fall of participation and prep levels in Time Trials. In my opinion.

 

Without Hoosier contingency, there was no need to prep to the gills to win a coffee cup or plaque. Once the bounty of $1400 worth of tires could be won in a weekend, competition invariably ramped up by "those that could". You know, it makes sense to spend $10k to win $1k -- all racing is that way. This was the RISE.

 

When Hoosier reduced the overall contingency program last year, the people that normally raced for 3rd place decided to not participate or DE only. No need in wasting a ton of money chasing a coffee cup or plaque. Kinda like it was before Purple Crack showed up. This was the FALL.

 

And now you know how obamanomics and romnancials work.

Kevin,

 

The Hoosier contingency sure made it extremely attractive, but for me the competition is the key. I love to compete, like Coach Edwards said “you play the game to win”. I personally have no interest in going around in meaningless laps; if I did, I would go to one of those other clubs where it is less money. Which is what I think is going on.

 

I am one of those that has been doing the meaningless laps for a few years. Couple of questions.

 

What is the entry fee for TT3 and ST3 in the midwest/great lakes region, and how much actual track time do you get per day per class?

Same question for TT2 and ST2?

Same question for HPDE4

If the average involvement in club racing is 5 years, how can I double my seat time and still use one car?

 

I just switched from a taxi cab to a caged 04 C5Z and really like competitive seat time.

Thanks

I don’t know the entry fees for that region but that is easily obtained from that regions web site. But that is the least of your worries when it comes to being competitive. The cost of development and building the car and wear items and maintenance far outweighs the entry fee. Furthermore, competing and winning has nothing to do with track time. I will tell you that if track time is your concern TT is not for you. We go out and do 2-3 hot laps maximum and pull in as the tires get too hot and lap times go up so why burn up tires and brakes. Conclusion, in TT you will get very little track time because of choice if nothing else. That being said there are many guys that run every minute of every session of every day which is the same as HPDE but timed as far as I am concerned. Naturally these guys may have different goals such beating theirs or their buddy’s times but they never run at the front. By the way those are the same guys that tell me that their A6’s last them a gazillion sessions, off course they do look at the times. Most top guys could burn through a set of A6’s in probably 2 sessions or less if they stayed on track but what would be the point.

[ILIKETODRIVE]

What is the entry fee for TT3 and ST3 in the midwest/great lakes region, and how much actual track time do you get per day per class?

Same question for TT2 and ST2?

Bigger question: Do you have a TT License or Race License to compete in TT or ST? If not, you need to direct your attention to obtaining those and then worry about all the money you'll throw away like the rest of us.

[yooper]

I am one of those that has been doing the meaningless laps for a few years. Couple of questions.

 

What is the entry fee for TT3 and ST3 in the midwest/great lakes region, and how much actual track time do you get per day per class?

Same question for TT2 and ST2?

Same question for HPDE4

If the average involvement in club racing is 5 years, how can I double my seat time and still use one car?

 

I just switched from a taxi cab to a caged 04 C5Z and really like competitive seat time.

Thanks

I don’t know the entry fees for that region but that is easily obtained from that regions web site. But that is the least of your worries when it comes to being competitive. The cost of development and building the car and wear items and maintenance far outweighs the entry fee. Furthermore, competing and winning has nothing to do with track time. I will tell you that if track time is your concern TT is not for you. We go out and do 2-3 hot laps maximum and pull in as the tires get too hot and lap times go up so why burn up tires and brakes. Conclusion, in TT you will get very little track time because of choice if nothing else. That being said there are many guys that run every minute of every session of every day which is the same as HPDE but timed as far as I am concerned. Naturally these guys may have different goals such beating theirs or their buddy’s times but they never run at the front. By the way those are the same guys that tell me that their A6’s last them a gazillion sessions, off course they do look at the times. Most top guys could burn through a set of A6’s in probably 2 sessions or less if they stayed on track but what would be the point.

 

Jimmy, thank you for the informative response regarding TT.

[yooper]

Bigger question: Do you have a TT License or Race License to compete in TT or ST? If not, you need to direct your attention to obtaining those and then worry about all the money you'll throw away like the rest of us.

 

No Sir, I am not licensed with nasa, yet. As an HPDE'r I am researching the prospects of going WTW and/or TT. Posts on the corvette forum by nasa members has brought me to this forum. Hopefully someone will educate me as to how much seat time to expect per day in nasa WTW racing.

 

practice minutes?

 

qualifying minutes?

 

race minutes?

 

number of sessions?

 

I know these are pretty basic questions, but lets assume I know nothing about nasa other than following a few threads that talk about "having fewer classes and greater car counts" and "what do we have to do to get the outside hpde market to join us".

 

So.......

[soundguydave]

I'll take it that you haven't been to a GL/MW event, then, since the schedule is pretty consistent. IN GENERAL, HPDE gets 4 sessions, minimum of 20 minutes, sometimes more. TT gets 5x15 minute sessions, W2W gets a 30 minute-ish practice, 20-30 for quals, and at least one 30-40 minute race per day. Sometimes we do two shorter races, or substitute another race for the P or Q on Sunday. The times are completely class-independent. What group(s) have you been running with, and what level of driver are you currently? Also, feel free to PM me if you want to chat about specifics of migrating to NASA.