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Greg G.

Non-OEM Aero Rule Solicitation--time to speak up!

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kbrew8991
Making everyone happy is my single greatest ambition...

spoken like a veteran series director

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jason
Making everyone happy is my single greatest ambition...

It's easier to piss everyone off.

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Greg G.
As for where to draw the line, make it easy. If it is not easy, then we might as well go back to Performance Touring rules.

If it is not a factory available option on that generation of car, then it is an aero mod and falls into the ST3 9.5:1 class.

 

If that means allowing an S2000 R-model to run at ST3 9.0:1, then so be it. There will be a ringer in every crowd. OR, specifically call out the odd-model factory built race cars as having to stay at ST3 9.5:1. It is far easier to list a few specific car models in the rules than having to list all of the possible combinations.

 

 

Rob,

 

Sorry, but this would include categorizing the Steeda replacement wing as an aero mod. Unfortunately, to create an easy ruleset that is easily policed by the directors and particpants, the line is going to get drawn in a place that does not make everyone happy.

Kevin, I (for once ) am in agreement with you. The more simple it is, the easier it is to write and to tech. But, maybe someone will come up with a brilliant idea. At the very least, some of the guys that would have ultimately complained about whatever rule was written can see how complicated even one single rule can get, and how ultimately, everybody will not be satisfied.

 

And Michael, everybody knows that you obviously have an aero bumper there. It is blue, and blue is the fastest color.

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Bnjmn
The more I've thought about it they should have just cancelled PTA/TTA and replaced it with nothing. Force us all into ST2/TT2(S). Leave ST2/TT2 at 8.7:1 and provide a 0.7 mod factor for "No aero" so a no aero car can run at 8.0:1. That would make the class attractive for all the ex SCCA T1 guys who are getting messed over by SCCA trying to slow them down and split the Corvettes up.

 

I think this is a good idea for car counts.

 

The ST2 field is going to lose some cars with ST3. And even with that, I think that ST3 counts are going to be low given the TTA numbers. Other than the occasional NE event this year, I haven't seen a field of ST2 cars that can afford to lose anyone. This situation might be particularly bleak at the beginning of next year if guys park to see which class is more popular.

 

I think this is where Ken's idea of 10-8-6 on the lb/hp spreads makes sense. 10 (w/o aero) is high enough to feed existing "A" cars into ST2 instead of ST3 and provide a realistic jump for lower powered PTA/B cars. ST2 fields will be helped and everyone that wants to avoid C5s will have a class that is (largely) free of them.

 

I still like my aero rule formulation. Fenders have always been free (under the PT/TT rules) and vents are treated under the "engine" category, which is now free. I would tweak it to forbid radiator shrouding from feeding any hood vent.

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kbrew8991

ST3 at 10.25 never got off the ground outside of Texas and was axed as an experiment

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Bnjmn

The landscape is a bit different now, no?

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kbrew8991
The landscape is a bit different now, no?

could be, could not be... just providing data points / history

 

you are right in that it what it did attract here when it was around was non-Corvette type stuff.

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jason

I agree with whoever said the mod factor needs to be big. Once these cars start getting dialed in it is going to take a lot of straightline speed to make up for the time they'll make in the corners.

 

 

(if we are determined to have mod factors at all. Personally I say set the hp:wt and turn everyone loose, attempting to limit costs at this point is kind of, well, pointless)

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Cobra4B

Is this new class set in stone? Seriously... just ax PTA/TTA and do ST2/TT2 @ 8.7:1 with a 0.7 mod factor for no aero so those ex T1 cars can come in at 8.0 flat. Right now things are incredibly confusing with all of us trying to figure out which class to build for.

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PushinTheLimit

 

And Michael, everybody knows that you obviously have an aero bumper there. It is blue, and blue is the fastest color.

 

Well hell... if I knew that, I could've rattle can spray painted the thing black.

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PushinTheLimit
Is this new class set in stone? Seriously... just ax PTA/TTA and do ST2/TT2 @ 8.7:1 with a 0.7 mod factor for no aero so those ex T1 cars can come in at 8.0 flat. Right now things are incredibly confusing with all of us trying to figure out which class to build for.

 

In all seriousness... this actually makes sense to me. It would be simplier and one less class to deal with.

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Cobra4B

 

And Michael, everybody knows that you obviously have an aero bumper there. It is blue, and blue is the fastest color.

 

Well hell... if I knew that, I could've rattle can spray painted the thing black.

Sawzall the little lips/flares off and you're good

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drivinhardz06

Rick McNutt gets the trophy for the "bought and built the wrong car at the wrong time award", Kevin Harvey gets the "modified it at the wrong time award", and Michael gets the "crashed it and bought all the wrong parts at the wrong time" award

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kbrew8991
Is this new class set in stone? Seriously... just ax PTA/TTA and do ST2/TT2 @ 8.7:1 with a 0.7 mod factor for no aero so those ex T1 cars can come in at 8.0 flat. Right now things are incredibly confusing with all of us trying to figure out which class to build for.

or do the smart thing and don't touch TTA/PTA but instead adjust the cars down that need a little help (and/or stop giving them hp/wt reclasses that force them to ST2/TTS...) and don't upset any applecarts at all!!

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Cobra4B
Is this new class set in stone? Seriously... just ax PTA/TTA and do ST2/TT2 @ 8.7:1 with a 0.7 mod factor for no aero so those ex T1 cars can come in at 8.0 flat. Right now things are incredibly confusing with all of us trying to figure out which class to build for.

or do the smart thing and don't touch TTA/PTA but instead adjust the cars down that need a little help (and/or stop giving them hp/wt reclasses that force them to ST2/TTS...) and don't upset any applecarts at all!!

But apparently Corvettes are such super-overdogs that other cars just can't compete with us in a points-limited class

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kbrew8991
Is this new class set in stone? Seriously... just ax PTA/TTA and do ST2/TT2 @ 8.7:1 with a 0.7 mod factor for no aero so those ex T1 cars can come in at 8.0 flat. Right now things are incredibly confusing with all of us trying to figure out which class to build for.

or do the smart thing and don't touch TTA/PTA but instead adjust the cars down that need a little help (and/or stop giving them hp/wt reclasses that force them to ST2/TTS...) and don't upset any applecarts at all!!

But apparently Corvettes are such super-overdogs that other cars just can't compete with us in a points-limited class

give them more points to spend instead of pulling the caps off of everybody

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drivinhardz06
Is this new class set in stone?

 

I think Moses is pretty much at the base of the mountain headed this way with the carbon fiber tablets

 

I can't see them floating out the prelim rules and then yanking them back

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jason

Yeah, I think the deed is done. Now we're just haggling over price.

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Falcon
Is this new class set in stone? Seriously... just ax PTA/TTA and do ST2/TT2 @ 8.7:1 with a 0.7 mod factor for no aero so those ex T1 cars can come in at 8.0 flat. Right now things are incredibly confusing with all of us trying to figure out which class to build for.

 

The more I think about it, why should non aero cars get any mod advantage?

 

Anyone can spend the money on aero, it's not like it made of unobtainiam. There are many guys don't want to spend money buttloads of money on new A6's, should we give those used tire guys a mod factor? We all know new A6's are good for at least a second, so there's a built in advantage.

 

And BB kits? We know those are better in a long race. And quadruple adjustable shocks. Many can't afford those, should those get a guys get a mod factor?

 

I guess I don't see how these items, all damned expensive, are any different than a wing and splitter.

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drivinhardz06

The more I think about it, why should non aero cars get any mod advantage?

 

I think it was pretty much a bone to throw to the PTA corvette's, that lost their class, to give them another option in ST3 without having to build a world challenge looking C5

 

I like the techy side of this hobby and it will offer some pretty fun comparisons/testing

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Greg G.

I love it how it doesn't matter what the thread is about recently, it degenerates into a knitting session reminiscing about the good ole days. Ken, we understand that your TTA group was a decent group. But, you have ZERO PTA cars. Your region had one of the only decent TTA groups (Arizona was another). You say that we didn't give your drivers a survey. We didn't need to because we already knew their opinions. They are in the minority, which is why I posted that the majority agreed with these changes. If all regions had your TTA participation ALONG with similar PTA participation, then we wouldn't have changed anything other than making some adjustment to the C5's (big ballast, change base class, etc) and lowering the adjustment of ST2 to 8:1, which has been desired by many for a few years. But, those classes were not doing well in the majority of regions, and the numbers were getting worse, not better. We actually wanted to do ST3 a few years ago, but the PTA numbers were doing ok, and we put it on hold. Brian, if you can't hear Ken (and his guys through him) metaphorically screaming about these changes now, you sure would if their only option was 8.7:1 or 8.0:1 w/o Aero. As well, the newer production performance vehicles should end up slotting well into these new options. Having the first option at 8.0:1 w/o Aero is a non-starter for many of the new cars coming out that have too much power for TTB/PTB. Also, some of you may not be aware of this, but if we didn't have the non-Aero option in ST3, some of the current PTA Vettes would be forced to remove and rebuild their cages with bigger tubing. No, it is not your fault that they built to a 3000 lbs standard, but it is just another factor to consider when we weigh these decisions.

 

I think it is funny how some of you guys act like NASA is trying to make things worse, or make you spend more money on parts, or just make changes because we have nothing better to do. Just because we have a few guys going on every thread and complaining about the same thing loudly, does not mean that there aren't 100 guys that like the changes, and that 50 new participants won't see the changes and come and play. These changes were arrived at by a committee of five, with over 80 years of racing experience, and over 60 years of racing administrative, rules writing, and racing business experience, after we surveyed and spoke with hundreds of racers, TT'ers, Series Directors, and Regional Directors. The changes were not approved until we went back to over 40 Regional and Series Directors for their feedback. There is widespread support for these changes, and they are going to happen. There are always going to be unhappy folks when changes occur. Close to 50% of the country is about to be unhappy (again) regardless of the election results. If we are at 5% or less, and we are opening up the potential for more than 20% growth, then we are doing great. I would encourage anyone that is going to compete with us in the future to lock on to the positive aspects of these changes, and go with them. While negative posts have probably little effect on current racers and TT competitors that have their own opinions, they definitely can have an effect on HPDE drivers and drivers from other organizations looking for a new home. Would you be interested in going into a series where all you see on the Forums is a bunch of crying about the rules? So, while you may be helping yourself vent your frustrations, you are just discouraging new participants. So, if your biggest complaint is that there are too few competitors, why don't you go positive and help the situation? Ultimately, these changes were a bit of a compromise. Instead of forcing all C5's into ST2 (at 8.0:1), they can still play at the lower power levels in ST3. These levels have dropped from PTA levels so that we can get other car models to start participating again. Hopefully, they will be able to compete with the C5's once their PTA points restrictions are removed (just as Aaron Byram did in TTS at the Championships this year).

 

So, if you recall, this thread was a request for ideas on the Non-OEM Aero rule. So, back to the regularly scheduled program....

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Greg G.

The more I think about it, why should non aero cars get any mod advantage?

 

I think it was pretty much a bone to throw to the PTA corvette's, that lost their class, to give them another option in ST3 without having to build a world challenge looking C5

 

I like the techy side of this hobby and it will offer some pretty fun comparisons/testing

As above, there was the cage issue as well. Yes, some bones were thrown, but a few of the dogs are just trying to bite our hands now, even though they voiced a different opinion before these changes were made.

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kbrew8991

if this is the first step of a couple of years plan to move to ST1-7 or whatever, can we just rip the bandaid off now and get it over with?

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Falcon

The more I think about it, why should non aero cars get any mod advantage?

 

I think it was pretty much a bone to throw to the PTA corvette's, that lost their class, to give them another option in ST3 without having to build a world challenge looking C5

 

I like the techy side of this hobby and it will offer some pretty fun comparisons/testing

As above, there was the cage issue as well. Yes, some bones were thrown, but a few of the dogs are just trying to bite our hands now, even though they voiced a different opinion before these changes were made.

 

Greg, I should have stated I was referring to ST2.

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Falcon

The more I think about it, why should non aero cars get any mod advantage?

 

I think it was pretty much a bone to throw to the PTA corvette's, that lost their class, to give them another option in ST3 without having to build a world challenge looking C5

 

I like the techy side of this hobby and it will offer some pretty fun comparisons/testing

 

Mark, I should have said I was referring to ST2, not ST3.

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