Jump to content

Non-OEM Aero Rule Solicitation--time to speak up!


Greg G.

Recommended Posts

also with ST being the home of some crazy engine swap cars (V6 Hondas anyone) the hood might need to be a freebie to allow people to fit in the powerplant(s) needed to make the ratios.

 

I'm leaning towards mfg made for street use ok, front bumper inlets, hood profile, hood holes/vents also open, everything else = aero mod, take the hit.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 232
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

  • Cobra4B

    28

  • Greg G.

    27

  • kbrew8991

    27

  • robbodleimages

    18

So would the stock OEM Aero package on a 2000 cobra r have no points? Tracking what is "non-oem" for every model possible running this class could add 3 pages to the rules and clarify nothing.

 

 

Please keep it simple and do NOT bring the PT mentality to ST which is some sort of concession for every little mod. Build a race car and race on the track. Don't get bogged down figuring out if little Johnny has an advantage with his new widget and how much should he be penalized. You guys wonder why rules are unstable? It because they are written to be moving targets in PT to account for the myriad of possibilities. ST is a run what you bring and built in your garage. The two classes are totally different in mentality. I get the Vette guys are being forced out of PTA. It sucks for you. However, from our standpoint in ST, our rules currently work great and we don't want the instability of PT ruining them because a new widget comes out next year or someone starts complaining they have to spend money to race. Last time I checked racing is expensive. Its like complaining water is wet. Either drink the water or starve. Please don't break what isn't broke. If the non-aero cars are blasted out of the water in 2013, then make a change in 2014. Doesn't cost anyone any money while getting actual data. Let the few affected PTA guys tip toe into the water which doesn't cost a dime for mods to their current car unless they wasnt to. My bet is they end up with Aero by the end of 2013 season and 2014 needs no change.....ST3 gets off the ground, rules are simple and similar between levels within ST. Problem solved.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jesus MFW, are you that dense?

 

Did Ford make the CobraR stuff - yes

Is Ford an OEM - yes

Thus it'd be fine if we do OEM stuff free. Replicas thereof would/could be fine.

 

Allowing ANY OEM parts without a hit is a bigger jump up from the PT rules where it has to be the same as the base plain jane car.... meaning you'd better have stock GT front bumper and nothing on that rear decklid...

 

And if you're going to keep all the aero on your car then it'd almost be in your best interest to get the line drawn more like PT quite honestly to get a bigger gap between yourself and those without.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jesus MFW, are you that dense?

 

Did Ford make the CobraR stuff - yes

Is Ford an OEM - yes

Thus it'd be fine if we do OEM stuff free. Replicas thereof would/could be fine.

 

Allowing ANY OEM parts without a hit is a bigger jump up from the PT rules where it has to be the same as the base plain jane car.... meaning you'd better have stock GT front bumper and nothing on that rear decklid...

 

And if you're going to keep all the aero on your car then it'd almost be in your best interest to get the line drawn more like PT quite honestly to get a bigger gap between yourself and those without.

But a 2000 Cobra R has real aero. Why is it "OK" for that car to run at 9:1? That's what has to be figured out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's not *that* good. Viper ACR-X is about the only one that comes to mind that might need a hit. S2k CR nope, etc

 

What's your suggestion - list a bunch of special models / special model parts out that count and would take the hit?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's not *that* good. Viper ACR-X is about the only one that comes to mind that might need a hit. S2k CR nope, etc

 

What's your suggestion - list a bunch of special models / special model parts out that count and would take the hit?

What about a ZR1 Corvette that comes with a splitter up front? I'm not really sure what the answer is. To me the easiest thing is that any "street legal" OEM parts that came on an OEM model are OK as non-aero and let 'er rip. The only cars I can think of with decent OEM aero are the Laguna Seca Boss and the ACR-X. I'd say so long as they don't install the non-street legal splitter they they're OK as "no aero".

 

Problem is enforcement... will everyone know what the OEM stuff is supposed to look like? What if I take my Laguna Seca and add a new wing element but I use the factory uprights and end plates?

 

I mean I don't really care... I drive a C5 so I'll beat anything out there.... right?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • National Staff

 

I mean I don't really care... I drive a C5 so I'll beat anything out there.... right?

 

Well, probably not you, but Scott, David, Ben, Mark, Kevin, Rory, Ken, sure.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I mean I don't really care... I drive a C5 so I'll beat anything out there.... right?

 

 

Everyone,

 

Please don't let Brian sway your thoughts on the stereotypical C5 Corvette racer. You can actually have a two-sided conversation with some of us. (where is that poke-poke smiley???)

 

 

-Kevin

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dump the non-aero bonus and run at 9.5:1

 

You can drop the S2000 CR unless it has a turbo since it'll never make 9.5. A better comparison would be the Elise and Exige. The Elise is hardly a non-aero car except as compared to the Exige (all else equal).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dump the non-aero bonus and run at 9.5:1

 

You can drop the S2000 CR unless it has a turbo since it'll never make 9.5. A better comparison would be the Elise and Exige. The Elise is hardly a non-aero car except as compared to the Exige (all else equal).

You'd be surprised how close an S2K could get to 9.5:1 NA...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jesus MFW, are you that dense?

 

Did Ford make the CobraR stuff - yes

Is Ford an OEM - yes

Thus it'd be fine if we do OEM stuff free. Replicas thereof would/could be fine.

 

Allowing ANY OEM parts without a hit is a bigger jump up from the PT rules where it has to be the same as the base plain jane car.... meaning you'd better have stock GT front bumper and nothing on that rear decklid...

 

And if you're going to keep all the aero on your car then it'd almost be in your best interest to get the line drawn more like PT quite honestly to get a bigger gap between yourself and those without.

But a 2000 Cobra R has real aero. Why is it "OK" for that car to run at 9:1? That's what has to be figured out.

 

 

I have run against a race prepped 2000 Cobra R in my non-aero C5. They can use that as OEM and not aero points...they need the help..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

I mean I don't really care... I drive a C5 so I'll beat anything out there.... right?

 

Well, probably not you, but Scott, David, Ben, Mark, Kevin, Rory, Ken, sure.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's not *that* good. Viper ACR-X is about the only one that comes to mind that might need a hit. S2k CR nope, etc

 

What's your suggestion - list a bunch of special models / special model parts out that count and would take the hit?

What about a ZR1 Corvette that comes with a splitter up front? I'm not really sure what the answer is. To me the easiest thing is that any "street legal" OEM parts that came on an OEM model are OK as non-aero and let 'er rip. The only cars I can think of with decent OEM aero are the Laguna Seca Boss and the ACR-X. I'd say so long as they don't install the non-street legal splitter they they're OK as "no aero".

 

Problem is enforcement... will everyone know what the OEM stuff is supposed to look like? What if I take my Laguna Seca and add a new wing element but I use the factory uprights and end plates?

 

I mean I don't really care... I drive a C5 so I'll beat anything out there.... right?

 

 

Any C6 can run the ZR1 parts as non-aero - you need to understand marketing versus engineering....Miatas and Mustangs also have a gazillion (technical term) factory OEM pieces..

 

You would be surprised at the knowledge base of the officials and the power of the internet...

 

I can contact my local Ford fanatic and he can help me bust any code, part number or profile change....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dump the non-aero bonus and run at 9.5:1

 

You can drop the S2000 CR unless it has a turbo since it'll never make 9.5. A better comparison would be the Elise and Exige. The Elise is hardly a non-aero car except as compared to the Exige (all else equal).

You'd be surprised how close an S2K could get to 9.5:1 NA...

 

No doubt that I am mistaken, my impression was that they topped out around 230hp. Regardless, they both highlight the subjectivity of the adjustment. Factory aero can be beneficial to one model over another but yet neither model may benefit greatly relative to a car with the real thing (i.e a full blown aftermarket setup). It comes down to drawing a subjective line in an otherwise objective class-- all for the sake of a 15-20hp advantage. The only sense I can make is that the non-aero bonus helps facilitate the integration of detuned ST2 cars that already have aero with PT cars that may not have it. If so, a planned phase out after a year or two would limit the "crap shoot" factor of a fixed adjustment. All of you will freely admit that there is a continuum of aerodynamic advantages and disadvantages for every car that just can't be sorted very well using 0.5.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have run against a race prepped 2000 Cobra R in my non-aero C5. They can use that as OEM and not aero points...they need the help..

 

thats part of what needs to be talked about. or maybe not. people will just make their class decisions based on the available information. if my 2005 body mustang was matched against a c5 at an equal 9-1 power to weight and both with bare bodies, i wouldnt bother. the mustang gets killed. of course the mustang needs the help. its a 4 seat car vs a 2 seat car. its a secretary's commuter car that you can put performance stuff on for it to go faster vs a world reknowned sports car.

 

the basic balance and aerodynamics of the two cars are in two different classes. take the hp out of the mix and one car is still superior to the other car. one car of those two needs some help if the racing is going to be equal.

 

my take is that this class being created is a corvette class and if anyone wants to tangle with the corvettes the invitation is there. and thats fine.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

with a PT approach that pairty is possible

with an ST approach it's hard

 

Shrug. People wanted the ST approach...

 

And there *are* better platforms than the Corvette, it's just the more common "good" one due to it being relatively inexpensive compared to many other more exotic things.

 

And Rob, if you had a Fox platform car I'd almost agree with you, but the S-197 is lightyears ahead... it's dang near an acceptable chassis these days See all the AI and CMC people that want that chassis kicked out of their class?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

ken...we are talking about two different things. yea, the s197 chassis is better than the fox/sn95 package. i'd race my s197 even up against a c4 any day. its the same difference.

 

a c5 corvette and a s197 mustang are not equal packages. the base fact that one is a body for a low dollar 6 cyl/4 seat car and the other is a body for a world class two seat v8 race car should be clear enough.

 

if i had the same aero package that most ai cars and the boss 302S has, i'd feel comfortable trying to race them. with some long tube headers added to that, i;d feel the car was decent for st2.

 

bare? no.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

ken...we are talking about two different things. yea, the s197 chassis is better than the fox/sn95 package. i'd race my s197 even up against a c4 any day. its the same difference.

 

a c5 corvette and a s197 mustang are not equal packages. the base fact that one is a body for a low dollar 6 cyl/4 seat car and the other is a body for a world class two seat v8 race car should be clear enough.

 

if i had the same aero package that most ai cars and the boss 302S has, i'd feel comfortable trying to race them. with some long tube headers added to that, i;d feel the car was decent for st2.

 

bare? no.

 

Wait till the BMW and Porsches show up in ST/TT3 if they chose to. They are world class chassis with lots of race knowledge.

 

My bet is some S197 cars with aero mods will show up and be impressive. Keep in mind the tire mod factor lets you keep your brick accelerating.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Rob aren't you looking at ST2? There's no aero factor there... just ST3.

 

If it is ST3 and if you feel you need aero to hang, go whole-hog on it and prep to that ratio... it's not rocket science.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • National Staff

Wait till the BMW and Porsches show up in ST/TT3 if they chose to. They are world class chassis with lots of race knowledge.

 

My bet is some S197 cars with aero mods will show up and be impressive. Keep in mind the tire mod factor lets you keep your brick accelerating.

I agree. BMW's and Porsche's rule the ST world on the West side. Also, don't forget that the heavy brick's get a + Mod Factor for weight from the table. I could see that table being used as a method to "tweak" for competition adjustments if needed in the future. It might end up that the lighter BMW's and Porsche's need less of a negative hit from that table, and the heavy Mustangs need more of a gain. I know I keep mentioning it, but let us not forget that the TTS record at Mid-Ohio was almost broken by a Civic. If he hadn't have gone over the Dyno by one HP, he would have taken first instead of second (he was dyno'd the prior session and was under).

 

I've got an idea. Let's get everyone on track together in 2013, including and especially at MMP, and we will find out!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...