UBR Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 Good info, but I don't understand the logic. Are you saying there aren't enough Fbodies available? Dave, Not saying there aren't enough old F-bodies. We switched to the new Central Region last year. We had a lot of SCCA guys come out to see what NASA was about and a fair amount of people that were going to "build" something for 2013. Most said they were looking for a car that was 8-10 years old to start with. Look at what is 8-10 years old. Last years of the SN95 Mustang, last years of the F-body and S197s. Even if all are equal, what are most people going to consider? I'd first look at price. 05 S197s are dirt cheap. SN95s and F-bodies are cheaper, but probably by only a few $1,000. Next I'd look for decent race parts... Mustang (any type) wins, with most aftermarket focusing on the newer body. Last, is there any factory support? Again, any Mustang wins. For anyone considering a build today, the S197 makes the most sense. 5 years from now, it will likely be the only realistic game. I understand 5-7 years ago it was different. As you say, that ship has sailed. I think if GM had stayed in the game and could have afforded to provide race support, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Rules "allowances" made 5 or 6 years ago are not as relevant now. I get the frustration and I think there are ways to allow new technology, superior platforms and big checkbooks to compete evenly with the rest of us. We need to get back to some basics in the rules and develop some equalizing factors for what ever car someone wants to show up with. Be it a 2013 Mustang GT or my 23 year old Fox (OK and your decade old F-body) j Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wstukas Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 OK and your decade old F-body Hey, my car turns 20 this year! It sucks that GM does not support club racing, and it sucks that the new Camaro is such a heavy pile of turd. I was very excited when the car first came out; and equally dissapointed with it's performance on track. For anyone looking to build a new-ish car for AI, the S197 is the only option; and frankly, it's a damned good option! It sucks for diversity of our series, but it is what it is. Now, i'm going out to the garage to work on my 2013 setup! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigKeyserSoze Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 I'm with Stukas. I just think its going to be fun to whip some new mustang ass in my ancient 88 Fox. I bought it used, cheap, and I'm going to wheel that bitch to the front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marshallmosty Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 Guys, The AI rules have been wide open for a decade... Just look at what Pat L. did with his FOX back in 2006'ish. Center lug wheels, LS1... All legal. Look at the first few paragraphs of the rules. It's about modifying a stock car with aftermarket parts. Some of those parts just happen to come from a "Big 3" company. Yes, they have a huge budget and a passion for pro racing. That's great for everyone... If you think you can just buy the "grip in a box" system from MM or the "GR40" system from Griggs and just go out and win, I have some seaside property in Arizona I need to sell. Sit down with your turd, figure out a plan to make it faster, pick the grit of compound to polish your turd and start shining... We are all on the same tires with the same ability for suspension.. Rear suspension Torque arm 3-link Decoupled torque arm Front suspension Strut vs. SLA Brakes We all run iron rotors with calipers most likely from a Porsche 996... Frame We all can go cage crazy, gusset between the cage and the body, seam weld, triangulate, blah, blah... Shocks Anyone can give AST, Moton, Koni, Penske and figure out a custom setup. The Rehagen shock package is stupid expensive, but at the end of the day, someone was willing to write the check... Just because you can only afford Koni SA's, don't complain about the triple adjustable Motons or Penske's the guy next to you has. Skip the Starbucks for a few months and get a set... Aero We all put wings, splitters, side skirts, diffusers... This isn't better for any one chassis.... ABS Let's not go there... There are concessions for that in the rules now that seem to be working well... Moral of the story is stop bitching on the forums and get out in the garage and do something about it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 Moral of the story is stop bitching on the forums and get out in the garage and do something about it... then what will we all have to read at work while waiting to get out and polish said turds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CF03GT Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 Guys,The AI rules have been wide open for a decade... Just look at what Pat L. did with his FOX back in 2006'ish. Center lug wheels, LS1... All legal. Look at the first few paragraphs of the rules. It's about modifying a stock car with aftermarket parts. Some of those parts just happen to come from a "Big 3" company. Yes, they have a huge budget and a passion for pro racing. That's great for everyone... If you think you can just buy the "grip in a box" system from MM or the "GR40" system from Griggs and just go out and win, I have some seaside property in Arizona I need to sell. Sit down with your turd, figure out a plan to make it faster, pick the grit of compound to polish your turd and start shining... We are all on the same tires with the same ability for suspension.. Rear suspension Torque arm 3-link Decoupled torque arm Front suspension Strut vs. SLA Brakes We all run iron rotors with calipers most likely from a Porsche 996... Frame We all can go cage crazy, gusset between the cage and the body, seam weld, triangulate, blah, blah... Shocks Anyone can give AST, Moton, Koni, Penske and figure out a custom setup. The Rehagen shock package is stupid expensive, but at the end of the day, someone was willing to write the check... Just because you can only afford Koni SA's, don't complain about the triple adjustable Motons or Penske's the guy next to you has. Skip the Starbucks for a few months and get a set... Aero We all put wings, splitters, side skirts, diffusers... This isn't better for any one chassis.... ABS Let's not go there... There are concessions for that in the rules now that seem to be working well... Moral of the story is stop bitching on the forums and get out in the garage and do something about it... Good stuff! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CF03GT Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 I'm with Stukas. I just think its going to be fun to whip some new mustang ass in my ancient 88 Fox. I bought it used, cheap, and I'm going to wheel that bitch to the front. Fricken hilarious stuff! And probably true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Watson Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 Rules appear to be out! http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Algozine Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 Yes rules have always been wide open. Yes there have been big dollar cars built in the past. Yes GM did nothing to develop the fbody into a road racer. Yes the S197 is a very capable car off the production line. Yes the older cars can be and have been built to the limit and are very capable of running up front. WARNING - BROKEN RECORD - Read at your own risk !!!! But NASA made it easier and encouraged the big dollar builts by changing the rules to accommodate the new Mustangs . Those new Mustangs could have and should have been built to the existing rules. Instead allowing the BS to get in. It was a huge slap in the face of everyone who had been busting there ass to build a competitve car, under the rules, only to be underminded by cubic dollars, and a race car built with all the engineering and resourses of a manufacturer. Instead the tail was wagging the dog. Regardless of any rule changes that have been made over the years there would have likely been many S197's joining the ranks over the years, which is great. But now the perception by many is either buy/build a new Mustang or try (or be capable - resources, skills and engineering) to build a car better then a professionally, purpose build OEM race car. Some guys are certainly capable of doing just that, just not very many of us, and very few of us have the resourses. The discussion is over. The cards have been played. We are all commenting about the past. So,look at the class. What has it become? Like I said, it's great for some but not for others, but it has definately changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevepoe Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 yaaaaawwwwwnnnnn!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Dave, the car as bad as it looked ? Did you see that body on ebay that I posted A link ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 the class has changed. with the passage of time it was going to change or die. the main reason that there are mostly mustangs is that the camaro/firebird did die and then general motors nearly died. sometimes the clock moves faster than we are noticing. the s197 mustang is entering the final year of its 10 year run. its old now too. its a fact of life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Algozine Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 yaaaaawwwwwnnnnn!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Dave, the car as bad as it looked ? Did you see that body on ebay that I posted A link ? It was worse then it looked. Everything on the drivers side is bent, broken or crushed, inlcuding both front and rear frame rails, torque box is ripped off, floor is wringled up behilnd my seat, drivers side suspension is crushed, k member bent and tore up, etc...... Cage held up perfectly Do you have any video? I was pretty sure Audrey had a rear mouonted camera. I'm really not sure I want to see it, but I thought i would ask. It hurt like hell. Thanks for offering to assist in getting me home. We were able to winch it into my trailer. I did see that Firebird on ebay. I'm taking this opportunity to build a CMC car. Sold some of my AI specific parts and will be selling many more very soon. I've already got a V6 donor 98 Camaro that I'm stripping down. Bob Denton is going to intall a cage very soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Algozine Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 the class has changed. with the passage of time it was going to change or die. the main reason that there are mostly mustangs is that the camaro/firebird did die and then general motors nearly died. sometimes the clock moves faster than we are noticing. the s197 mustang is entering the final year of its 10 year run. its old now too. its a fact of life. Still missing my point, but no worries...I'm moving on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marshallmosty Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 Yes rules have always been wide open. Yes there have been big dollar cars built in the past. Yes GM did nothing to develop the fbody into a road racer. Yes the S197 is a very capable car off the production line. Yes the older cars can be and have been built to the limit and are very capable of running up front. WARNING - BROKEN RECORD - Read at your own risk !!!! But NASA made it easier and encouraged the big dollar builts by changing the rules to accommodate the new Mustangs . Those new Mustangs could have and should have been built to the existing rules. Instead allowing the BS to get in. It was a huge slap in the face of everyone who had been busting there ass to build a competitve car, under the rules, only to be underminded by cubic dollars, and a race car built with all the engineering and resourses of a manufacturer. Instead the tail was wagging the dog. Regardless of any rule changes that have been made over the years there would have likely been many S197's joining the ranks over the years, which is great. But now the perception by many is either buy/build a new Mustang or try (or be capable - resources, skills and engineering) to build a car better then a professionally, purpose build OEM race car. Some guys are certainly capable of doing just that, just not very many of us, and very few of us have the resourses. The discussion is over. The cards have been played. We are all commenting about the past. So,look at the class. What has it become? Like I said, it's great for some but not for others, but it has definately changed. Dave, I do agree that several years ago, last minute changes were made, in haste, prior to the Nat's and that probably wasn't the best timing... Not that it wouldn't have happened for the next year's rule set, but we'll never know on that for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Algozine Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 Yes rules have always been wide open. Yes there have been big dollar cars built in the past. Yes GM did nothing to develop the fbody into a road racer. Yes the S197 is a very capable car off the production line. Yes the older cars can be and have been built to the limit and are very capable of running up front. WARNING - BROKEN RECORD - Read at your own risk !!!! But NASA made it easier and encouraged the big dollar builts by changing the rules to accommodate the new Mustangs . Those new Mustangs could have and should have been built to the existing rules. Instead allowing the BS to get in. It was a huge slap in the face of everyone who had been busting there ass to build a competitve car, under the rules, only to be underminded by cubic dollars, and a race car built with all the engineering and resourses of a manufacturer. Instead the tail was wagging the dog. Regardless of any rule changes that have been made over the years there would have likely been many S197's joining the ranks over the years, which is great. But now the perception by many is either buy/build a new Mustang or try (or be capable - resources, skills and engineering) to build a car better then a professionally, purpose build OEM race car. Some guys are certainly capable of doing just that, just not very many of us, and very few of us have the resourses. The discussion is over. The cards have been played. We are all commenting about the past. So,look at the class. What has it become? Like I said, it's great for some but not for others, but it has definately changed. Dave, I do agree that several years ago, last minute changes were made, in haste, prior to the Nat's and that probably wasn't the best timing... Not that it wouldn't have happened for the next year's rule set, but we'll never know on that for sure. Thought I was done.... thats what she said (rim shot) Pretty close to my point. But then I've always asked, why ever make those changes and others that have been made before and since. Why should any car get special rules for its inclusion, especially when it's already an awesome platform/package without the extra, expensive stuff. By the way, the answer given several years ago, was incredibly lame. Never sat well with me. Ever wonder whats next? I always assumed the edict came from the very top. and that we (or mainly I) were just beating up on the messengers. The 09 nationals thing made it pretty clear who or what was driving the decissions. So, again, it wasn't inevitable, it wasn't in accident, it was planned. Ford was and still is very involved in road racing, so I assume they wanted in or NASA wanted them in. Either way same result. It's NASA's game, they get to make the rules. But remember this is supposed to be amateur racing. Is it realy good for the actual racers that Ford is as involved at the level they are involved? I suppose its fine if you're racing an S197, but if not, ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizlbits Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 Yawn. Did I go back in time to 2009? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizlbits Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 On a lighter note: No more dash rule; ...and there was much rejoicing (yay!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marshallmosty Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 Dave, I hear you. I'm in a FOX and am stretching the boundaries of asking the powers to allow the non-S197's a flux-capacitor so we can fast forward at least one lap into the future per race. Maybe I should just make one and then say I need it added because I've already done it... All in good fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UBR Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 I'm in a FOX and am stretching the boundaries of asking the powers to allow the non-S197's a flux-capacitor Hey I got a bunch of track width last year (not that I can use all of it without new suspension bits) and no dash this year. That sounds like NASA is creating new rules to benefit the old cars. Now I just need better setup and driving skills. j Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevepoe Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 yaaaaawwwwwnnnnn!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Dave, the car as bad as it looked ? Did you see that body on ebay that I posted A link ? It was worse then it looked. Everything on the drivers side is bent, broken or crushed, inlcuding both front and rear frame rails, torque box is ripped off, floor is wringled up behilnd my seat, drivers side suspension is crushed, k member bent and tore up, etc...... Cage held up perfectly Do you have any video? I was pretty sure Audrey had a rear mouonted camera. I'm really not sure I want to see it, but I thought i would ask. It hurt like hell. Thanks for offering to assist in getting me home. We were able to winch it into my trailer. I did see that Firebird on ebay. I'm taking this opportunity to build a CMC car. Sold some of my AI specific parts and will be selling many more very soon. I've already got a V6 donor 98 Camaro that I'm stripping down. Bob Denton is going to intall a cage very soon. I do have it . it shows you go off drivers left. back and forth a couple times trying to get it under control then the loop back across the track and them waabammmm . Though Audrey was a good ways up ahead of you before you go off she really pulls away from you after you check up trying to save it . If I recall I can't even see you hit the actual wall as you go out of frame on drivers right. I downloaded it to my office computer but I'm clueless on how to upload it or send it . I tried sending it to a friend but it will not send as it says the file is to large..... sucks about the car but least you somewhat walked away from it not hurt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Algozine Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 Yawn. Did I go back in time to 2009? How about 1989 ??? I had more hair, it was brown and not grey, I was 30lbs lighter, chicks dug me (at least, thats my perception) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
99cobra2881 Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 Hell yeah back in the summer of '89!!!! I was getting ready for 5th grade. haha damn kids! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tacovini Posted January 14, 2013 Author Share Posted January 14, 2013 Jeez....Dave, how have you been!?! LOL You're never going to let that "last minute decision" down are you?? Despite all the corporate conspiracy theories, I'll stand by my original decision and the reasoning for allowing that new Ford transmission in the months before the championship in 2009: 1) The transmission is not class killer nor the sole contributing factor in winning a championship race. 2) We encourage car count & crossovers from other series. 3) The transmission had been allowed IN MULTIPLE CARS regionally in NASA all year long. 4) As with any current year vehicle, parts are more expensive, and ANY transmission from a current model vehicle (i.e.- dealer inventory) is going to be more than $5.5k rule. (That wasn't the intent of the rule.) 5) I didn't want to have a BS protest on a technicality at a National Championship (some other organizations might do that, NOT NASA!!!)...so I fixed it. Did the timing suck? Absolutely. I wish we caught it sooner in the year or during the rules review. The answer would have been the same, but the timing would have been better. I know this isn't going to make you feel any better, but I felt it necessary to recap the reasoning one more time for the new folks. Hope to see you back out there soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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