how do we get BFG to offer contingency to our TT program?

[toomchpwr]

they offer a better program than hoosier in regards to tires versus starters but TT isn't listed as an eligible class:

 

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CDMQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nasaproracing.com%2Fcontingency%2Fbfgoodrich_contingency_program%2F2012_BFGoodrich_Tire_Regional_Contingency_Info.pdf&ei=lY7EUJWJLqrh0wGnvoGIDQ&usg=AFQjCNGz1Etn7i6QlSzKX0DTq_7ul9r-EA&sig2=0VFPHqSPHOmH5n-hmYAksQ

 

AIX, GTSU, GTS1, GTS2, GTS3, GTS4, GTS5, PTA, PTB, PTC, PTD, PTE, PTF, ST1, ST2, STR1,

STR2, SU, ES, ESR, E0, E1, E2, E3

 

I sent an email to the person in the contact info section but not sure it'll get traction.

thoughts? ideas?

[kbrew8991]

keep pestering them, they'll eventually realize it'd be a good partnership.

 

Or switch to Hoosiers

[Fixxxercask]

I had talked to one of the BFG reps at nationals about it briefly. He said they would, but they don't like that TT doesn't have any safety restrictions. They don't want to support that. That was his explanation.

[drivinhardz06]

I had talked to one of the BFG reps at nationals about it briefly. He said they would, but they don't like that TT doesn't have any safety restrictions. They don't want to support that. That was his explanation.

 

So I guess BFG's are not good for all the 8 million track day DE cars

[Bnjmn]

I had talked to one of the BFG reps at nationals about it briefly. He said they would, but they don't like that TT doesn't have any safety restrictions. They don't want to support that. That was his explanation.

 

That is a crock. These guys make a DOT legal drag radial and they advertise about being able to use it on the street...hard to mfg products that enable the least safe form of "racing" and ignore TT'ing due to safety.

 

Most likely they do not understand the economic benefits of TT contingency. I can't think of any other reason why they would concede a sizable market to Hoosier.

[jason]

Does BFG make a tire that can compete with an 'A'?

[drivinhardz06]

Does BFG make a tire that can compete with an 'A'?

 

They have already dinged a few of the sizes, so it some of the popular sizes, it would be an (even more) uphill battle

[Varkwso]

I have recruited a few BFG engineers from Greenville into TT. That should help.

[Varkwso]

I had talked to one of the BFG reps at nationals about it briefly. He said they would, but they don't like that TT doesn't have any safety restrictions. They don't want to support that. That was his explanation.

 

That is not rational.

[kbrew8991]

I have recruited a few BFG engineers from Greenville into TT. That should help.

Will they be smoking what they sell?

[Varkwso]

I have recruited a few BFG engineers from Greenville into TT. That should help.

Will they be smoking what they sell?

 

That is their intent.

[Fair]

After spending two days this week in New Orleans and at the NOLA Motorsports Park, I talked at length to the "Motorsport Program Manager/Michelin North America, Inc./BFGoodrich Tires, Inc." Peter Calhoun at the BFGoodrich Rival Launch Event, NOLA Motorsports Park, Jan 22-23, 2013. So their aversion to contingency in TT comes from the fact that Peter watched the 2011 NASA Championships at Mid Ohio and was worried about how aggressive the TT drivers were passing each other with "no fire suits, roll cages or fire systems". And with our litigious society they don't want to have racers on their tires crashing on a road course and burning to a cinder. I told him that TT had a flawless safety record and that passing for position was not part of the competition.

 

 

I tried to explain how popular Time Trial had become in NASA, and will be writing him a letter sharing some NASA TT results with big fields. We need to keep hammering away at them. The R1-S is showing to be as fast or faster as the A6 in testing yet they have better wear. It sounds like a load of Marketing but I saw the results of the wear on the BFG Rival first hand, where we drove the same cars back to back on their tires, Toyos (abysmal wear), Hankook (not great), Falken RT6515 and more. The Rival tires had more grip, faster times and the least wear. Michelin has shared some of their high silicon compound technology with BFG and it shows.

 

I'm not giving up... I'm going to push for more. The apparent handicap some BFG tires are strapped with in TT was noted by their people and it isn't helping the cause, nor is it fair when you consider the A6 doesn't have the same restriction. With a little help help from NASA then this could actually happen.

[hustler]

I had talked to one of the BFG reps at nationals about it briefly. He said they would, but they don't like that TT doesn't have any safety restrictions. They don't want to support that. That was his explanation.

Authoritarian French parent company, lol.

[Varkwso]

I think they support autocross in SCCA...

[Balroks]

I think they support autocross in SCCA...

 

Arguably less risk though right.

[Fair]

I think they support autocross in SCCA...

Yes, SCCA Solo is a big part of their 2013 contingency program. I spent some time trying to show them the error in their ways, but they were undeterred. They do follow NASA road racing and knew of TT, just weren't keen on the risk of TT drivers.

But it was noted that the penalties given to the R1 and R1-S (very similar to the R6 and A6, respectively) are not helping NASA TT's popularity among BFG:

 

See the "BFG R1/R1S 245 & 275 Tire Exceptions" page 52 in the current TT rules.

 

BFG R1/R1S 245 & 275 Tire Exceptions:

Exceptions to Section 7.4.2 and 7.4.4 (Tires):

1) The size 275 BFG R1 and R1S tires will not be assessed a Modification Factor for tire size (i.e. not the listed +0.4) when calculating the “Adjusted Weight/Power Ratio”.

2) The size 245 BFG R1 and R1S tires will be assessed a Modification Factor of +0.4 for tire size (i.e. not the listed +0.8 ) when calculating the “Adjusted Weight/Power Ratio”.

This unfairly penalizes the R1 and R1-S over even gumball tires like the Hoosier A6, does NOT make sense, and needs to be addressed before they will even think about paying contingency to Time Trials. It isn't a level playing field vs Hoosier and they won't be a part of this system.

 

Who thought up this rule, and what justifies it? How does this help TT competitors?

[Bnjmn]

The rules are based on the results of track testing of the various sizes by NASA and supposedly actual measurements of the tires (I don't think too many were measures...or at least posted about).

[kbrew8991]

Terry - that same stuff applies to PT and ST - which they (did/do?) pay contingency for.

 

If they don't want to see the value of the TT market, other tire companies will and will be happy to take our business.

[Vettedoctor]

As far as the tire width ruling I think the BFG guys knew exactly what they were doing - they looked at the mod factors and tried to get an edge on the other tire manufacturers by making a tire that was "extra" wide.

Do you really have an issue with NASA not allowing a mod factor for tires that are .5" - .7" wider than the other tires of the same tire size? Seriously?

They covered there bases by having a more standard size just below there "extra" sized tires. Actually they are still a little wider than the Hoosiers - even though one size smaller!

 

Hoosier 245 18/17 = 9.3"

BFG 245-17 = 10"

BFG 235-17 = 9.5"

 

Hoosier 275 18/17 = 10.3"

BFG 275 - 18/17 = 10.8/10.7

BFG 265-18 = 10.5

 

If they allow the BFG to run "extra" sized then they are telling tire manufactures to ignore the normal limits of size and just build whatever they want, next thing you know you'll have 11" wide 275's!!!

We ran the standard R1 265 back to back with a Hoosier 275 at Road America in our PTA/TTA car and the lap times came out almost the same. If thread width's are fairly equal (+/- 1/4") the battle is fair, but once you get to 1/2" or more the BFG will be the faster tire - no question.

 

I agree with the ruling that NASA made, it's fair for everyone, anyone wanting to run BFG's still get a tire wider than the Hoosier, it's just not the "extra" wide size you may want.

 

Honestly if BFG made a 315-18 R1-S we would really think about running them on our ST2/TT2 car, unfortunately running a 285 front and 335 rear isn't gonna cut it for us.

[Varkwso]

Risk of TT drivers is a red herring. Compare numbers of cars vs medevacs/fatalities in HPDE, racing or even autocross. It is rare to have any injuries at all and fatalities are even rarer. Stock seats and belts last time I autocrossed in most classes.

[speedengineer]

As far as the tire width ruling I think the BFG guys knew exactly what they were doing - they looked at the mod factors and tried to get an edge on the other tire manufacturers by making a tire that was "extra" wide.

Do you really have an issue with NASA not allowing a mod factor for tires that are .5" - .7" wider than the other tires of the same tire size? Seriously?

They covered there bases by having a more standard size just below there "extra" sized tires. Actually they are still a little wider than the Hoosiers - even though one size smaller!

 

Hoosier 245 18/17 = 9.3"

BFG 245-17 = 10"

BFG 235-17 = 9.5"

 

Hoosier 275 18/17 = 10.3"

BFG 275 - 18/17 = 10.8/10.7

BFG 265-18 = 10.5

 

If they allow the BFG to run "extra" sized then they are telling tire manufactures to ignore the normal limits of size and just build whatever they want, next thing you know you'll have 11" wide 275's!!!

We ran the standard R1 265 back to back with a Hoosier 275 at Road America in our PTA/TTA car and the lap times came out almost the same. If thread width's are fairly equal (+/- 1/4") the battle is fair, but once you get to 1/2" or more the BFG will be the faster tire - no question.

 

I agree with the ruling that NASA made, it's fair for everyone, anyone wanting to run BFG's still get a tire wider than the Hoosier, it's just not the "extra" wide size you may want.

 

Honestly if BFG made a 315-18 R1-S we would really think about running them on our ST2/TT2 car, unfortunately running a 285 front and 335 rear isn't gonna cut it for us.

 

True, there are some BFG that are wider than their Hoosier counterparts. However, only a handful or them are significantly wider, and some are actually narrower. IMO those wide ones should get special treatment like the 255 Hoosiers do.

 

Now, if tire testing that NASA conducted shows that the BFG are faster across the board than Hoosiers, then the additional points are justified. I just wish they would share some of that data with us. I know there a a lot of people out there that don't think the BFG are worth those extra points...