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how to verify HP / tunes when running multiple classes


toomchpwr

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I am thinking there will be a lot of guys jumping between TT3 and TT2 depending on car counts.

I am guessing tunes will change to maximize allowable HP between the classes.

Stinks to rely on honor system. I'm thinking specifically of last NARRA event at the Glen with GT3 car c5 z06 with aero (8.75 lbs/hp) ran 1:58 or something.

 

I think the racers that have multiple tunes should make it known to competitors and TT director of this fact before each day in racers/TT meeting.

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now the LSx world can flip a switch on the fly to, just like the turbo guys with the turn signal boost stalks

 

I can tell you exactly why the "big cube" detuned motors are the thing in ST2 (and ST3) and it has nothing to do with the max torque, torque curve, or the above mentioned switch on the fly either.

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Data is getting cheap now, you can get a unit for $400 which in the grand scheme of this sport isn't much. I think it should be required for lap records, contingencies and wins. Dyno sheets should be ok for car counts, maybe points but it's too easy to cheat nowadays and a few people lacking the integrity not to take advantage of the system.

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Data is getting cheap now, you can get a unit for $400 which in the grand scheme of this sport isn't much. I think it should be required for lap records, contingencies and wins

 

While I agree, cars (even similar cars) that pull the same dyno numbers on a dynojet in a 1:1 gear, can get from A to B in a WOT straight line pull in dramatically different time frames for a lot of reasons, some legal, some "legal"

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Pm me the answer....lol....

 

now the LSx world can flip a switch on the fly to, just like the turbo guys with the turn signal boost stalks

 

I can tell you exactly why the "big cube" detuned motors are the thing in ST2 (and ST3) and it has nothing to do with the max torque, torque curve, or the above mentioned switch on the fly either.

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with engine controls on the new Ford and Chevy motors the detune is pretty easy and the "power switch" will also be easy. For example it is technically feasible to have more power on 1-3 and 5-6 and show a 4th gear pull showing the class limit. It will be a compliance issue but luckily competitors know when someone has 40 hp more out of corners. Proving it will be harder.

 

I saw the effects of a stroker TTS car in December. Damn it pulls out of the corners with its torque.

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Data is getting cheap now, you can get a unit for $400 which in the grand scheme of this sport isn't much. I think it should be required for lap records, contingencies and wins

 

While I agree, cars (even similar cars) that pull the same dyno numbers on a dynojet in a 1:1 gear, can get from A to B in a WOT straight line pull in dramatically different time frames for a lot of reasons, some legal, some "legal"

 

Thats fine. Just make them explain why at least. I know there are the clutches and aero tricks and maybe some stuff I dont know about yet. Cheating wont be eliminated, we there will be a stronger deterrent. Data will show hp application thoughout the lap.

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I saw the effects of a stroker TTS car in December. Damn it pulls out of the corners with its torque.

 

Thing is, it shouldn't though, assuming you are running an M6 (or even better an GM motorsports or ZR1 box), you should never be below 5k, ever (when I say you, I mean in general, not "you"). It's all equal at 5250, so assuming @ 375 hp limit, any 5.7L motor is more than capable of making 375 ft/lbs in that rpm range and above (and would likely even need to be detuned to even do that) and any bigger engine would for sure be severely detuned at that rpm point. So they must follow the same torque curve (it must fall off) as rpm increases to hold the hp at a steady level.

 

So two C5's are exiting a corner in 3rd gear, at 5400 rpm. Both weigh the same and thus have the same max hp allowed. One has a 427 and pulls the 346, yet both use the same gearing, and both must to follow the same torque curve from 5400 rpm on. Since the 346 motor is MORE than capable of making all the torque it needs from 5200+ to make it's hp goal, how is the bigger detuned motor an advantage? Your earlier post points to the answer.

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I saw the effects of a stroker TTS car in December. Damn it pulls out of the corners with its torque.

 

Thing is, it shouldn't though, assuming you are running an M6 (or even better an GM motorsports or ZR1 box), you should never be below 5k, ever (when I say you, I mean in general, not "you"). It's all equal at 5250, so assuming @ 375 hp limit, any 5.7L motor is more than capable of making 375 ft/lbs in that rpm range and above (and would likely even need to be detuned to even do that) and any bigger engine would for sure be severely detuned at that rpm point. So they must follow the same torque curve (it must fall off) as rpm increases to hold the hp at a steady level.

 

So two C5's are exiting a corner in 3rd gear, at 5400 rpm. Both weigh the same and thus have the same max hp allowed. One has a 427 and pulls the 346, yet both use the same gearing, and both must to follow the same torque curve from 5400 rpm on. Since the 346 motor is MORE than capable of making all the torque it needs from 5200+ to make it's hp goal, how is the bigger detuned motor an advantage? Your earlier post points to the answer.

 

I know which one was quicker out of T7...

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I saw the effects of a stroker TTS car in December. Damn it pulls out of the corners with its torque.

 

Thing is, it shouldn't though, assuming you are running an M6 (or even better an GM motorsports or ZR1 box), you should never be below 5k, ever (when I say you, I mean in general, not "you"). It's all equal at 5250, so assuming @ 375 hp limit, any 5.7L motor is more than capable of making 375 ft/lbs in that rpm range and above (and would likely even need to be detuned to even do that) and any bigger engine would for sure be severely detuned at that rpm point. So they must follow the same torque curve (it must fall off) as rpm increases to hold the hp at a steady level.

 

So two C5's are exiting a corner in 3rd gear, at 5400 rpm. Both weigh the same and thus have the same max hp allowed. One has a 427 and pulls the 346, yet both use the same gearing, and both must to follow the same torque curve from 5400 rpm on. Since the 346 motor is MORE than capable of making all the torque it needs from 5200+ to make it's hp goal, how is the bigger detuned motor an advantage? Your earlier post points to the answer.

 

I know which one was quicker out of T7...

 

oh I believe you

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Thing is, it shouldn't though, assuming you are running an M6 (or even better an GM motorsports or ZR1 box), you should never be below 5k, ever (when I say you, I mean in general, not "you"). It's all equal at 5250, so assuming @ 375 hp limit, any 5.7L motor is more than capable of making 375 ft/lbs in that rpm range and above (and would likely even need to be detuned to even do that) and any bigger engine would for sure be severely detuned at that rpm point. So they must follow the same torque curve (it must fall off) as rpm increases to hold the hp at a steady level.

 

You're assuming somebody hasn't swapped in a taller rear gear and runs a lower redline/revlimiter... (as I look at my 6.6L turbodiesel...)

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I saw the effects of a stroker TTS car in December. Damn it pulls out of the corners with its torque.

 

Thing is, it shouldn't though, assuming you are running an M6 (or even better an GM motorsports or ZR1 box), you should never be below 5k, ever (when I say you, I mean in general, not "you"). It's all equal at 5250, so assuming @ 375 hp limit, any 5.7L motor is more than capable of making 375 ft/lbs in that rpm range and above (and would likely even need to be detuned to even do that) and any bigger engine would for sure be severely detuned at that rpm point. So they must follow the same torque curve (it must fall off) as rpm increases to hold the hp at a steady level.

 

So two C5's are exiting a corner in 3rd gear, at 5400 rpm. Both weigh the same and thus have the same max hp allowed. One has a 427 and pulls the 346, yet both use the same gearing, and both must to follow the same torque curve from 5400 rpm on. Since the 346 motor is MORE than capable of making all the torque it needs from 5200+ to make it's hp goal, how is the bigger detuned motor an advantage? Your earlier post points to the answer.

 

The rate at which the torque falls off after 5250 will vary based on engine size. I know which method you are talking about to limit HP, but I dont think the 346 and 427 can be considered "equal" above 5200 RPM.

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The rate at which the torque falls off after 5250 will vary based on engine size. I know which method you are talking about to limit HP, but I dont think the 346 and 427 can be considered "equal" above 5200 RPM.

 

Absolutely they have to fall off the same, the rate at which torque falls off has nothing to do with engine size. hp is equated from rpm, and torque. in order to "hold" it at a certain hp as the rpm ranges increase, it must drop in torque (and if you had a 375 hp flat line, it would have to drop in torque exactly the same, for any engine, of any size).

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The only way to police it will be to limit cubic inches. Period..end of story.

 

But wait, you can't do that. It would be impossible. So obviously that means that there is no way to police it.

So that means that the hp/wt rule is essentially useless, which means 'why am I doing this again?'

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The only way to police it will be to limit cubic inches. Period..end of story.

 

But wait, you can't do that. It would be impossible. So obviously that means that there is no way to police it.

So that means that the hp/wt rule is essentially useless, which means 'why am I doing this again?'

 

It is impossible to cheat the laws of physics. With good data systems and listening to what people say the systems will be ferreted out.

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last year's dyno form:

http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/sanctioned/nasa_time_trial/ttdynoform.pdf

 

4th line

 

I expect 2013's form to be very similar

^^ This. I've been filling that section out and sometimes attaching another sheet of paper for YEARS to explain my multiple tunes. And more recently, we've required dyno sheets for all tunes. I've had to track down an official before to make sure he knows which tune I was running if I switched classes from Sat-Sun before so everything was updated BEFORE I hit the track in the morning.

 

Wouldn't a GPS tracker pick this up? The data used for that, as I understand it, is taken at nowhere near 4th gear speeds.

That's exactly what I was thinking. It logs from the moment it's turned on in the grid until tech takes it off.

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Wouldn't a GPS tracker pick this up? The data used for that, as I understand it, is taken at nowhere near 4th gear speeds.

I have no idea, but there would be a lot of variables to consider.

For example (in our corvette world), a MN6 gearbox 2nd gear to red line and 3rd gear straight away pull would look different than an M12. Then throw in the ZR1 box and /or different rear end gear ratio and you'd be trying to decipher the data for hours.

The whole point in swapping gears and trans boxes is to get from point A to point B quicker.

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Wouldn't a GPS tracker pick this up? The data used for that, as I understand it, is taken at nowhere near 4th gear speeds.

I have no idea, but there would be a lot of variables to consider.

For example (in our corvette world), a MN6 gearbox 2nd gear to red line and 3rd gear straight away pull would look different than an M12. Then throw in the ZR1 box and /or different rear end gear ratio and you'd be trying to decipher the data for hours.

The whole point in swapping gears and trans boxes is to get from point A to point B quicker.

 

You are overthinking the physics of the problem...

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