In-car lap timing device okay in DE?

[n80]

I've got Harry's Laptimer Pro on my iPhone. I know that some clubs do not allow in car lap timing devices in DE. I've read the NASA CCR but do not recall if there is any such restriction in NASA.

 

I'm not particularly interested in seeing the lap times live....in fact, I'm not sure that I could even look at it other than in the straights....I rarely even glance at the speedo. But I'd be interested in seeing lap and sector times after the session. Which is to say if NASA prefers that we not use it due to the possibility of distraction, can it still be in the car if it is out of sight?

[ILIKETODRIVE]

I can speak for our region when I say we allow in DE3 and DE4 and allow but highly discourage in DE1 and DE2 since students need to worry more about flags/etc than lap times.

 

Besides, winning an HPDE Championship is completely subjective.

Edited January 7, 2013 by Guest

[braknl8]

I was curious about this as well, for the same reasons. I'd like to be able to analyse g circles for braking and turn-in as well. I have not read or seen where we should not be able to do it. I've also found quite a few DE videos on youtube with data overlay. Unless someone chimes in to say that we can't I'm going to try trackmaster out at cmp next month (I have a droid so no hlt for me).

[Cobra4B]

It's pointless... DE groups have so much traffic that a lap time is meaningless. Plus, at that level a lap time should be the last thing in your mind. Use the HPDE groups to advance your skills and then try timetrials when you're ready to start competing for a lap time.

[braknl8]

It's pointless... DE groups have so much traffic that a lap time is meaningless. Plus, at that level a lap time should be the last thing in your mind. Use the HPDE groups to advance your skills and then try timetrials when you're ready to start competing for a lap time.

 

Its not the times we are so much interested in, Brian. These Apps can be good tools for learning...

[Cobra4B]

AFAIK you can run data-logging in DE groups. I've had students with Traqmate and various smartphone apps. If I feel they're concentrating on messing with the data-logger equipment too much I'll tell them to turn it off and drive. Same as if they're at such a novice level that the data is irrelevant... I.e. you need to have a base level of skills for the data to be meaningful.

[TowDawg]

I've used HLT since my very first DE. I know lap times have nothing to with it at the beginning, but between seeing the lap times, overall corner info (and video from GoPro), it helps to look at all of it after the fact and find places you can improve. Plus it's just fun to see your times get better, no matter what they are. However, I NEVER look at it while on the track, so it's not a distraction at all. I start it before I pull into the pits and turn it off wither during cool down or once I'm back in the pits.

[n80]

Cobra, you are right about the traffic, but you do get some clear laps from time to time, especially late on Sunday afternoon. As mentioned, I would not need to look at the device during the session. This program also gives you sector times and corner speeds (I think). And, Harry's Laptimer starts and stops on its own so there would be no fooling with it on the track at all.

 

With some smaller clubs where there was no traffic at all, it was very informative to watch videos combined with lap times that my wife had recorded manually. There is a lot to learn seeing what you did on faster vs slower laps.

 

And running laps on an open track is fun, but I don't mind traffic as long as the trains get sorted out. Its just a different kind of fun.

[Cobra4B]

I agree that data is awesome... just so long as you use the tools correctly. It sounds like you guys have the right ideas vs. the beginner student that responds, "To run under a 2:10" when I ask what his goals for the weekend are at VIR.

[mhoward1]

For those that have used or rented our system, I always recommend that they use the data logging vs lap timing modes at a DE for these very same reasons. They can be very good tools even after the fact, especially if you have read some of the good stuff by Peter krause or Making Sense of Squiggly Lines by Christopher Brown.

[t500hps]

....................., "To run under a 2:10" when I ask what his goals for the weekend are at VIR.

 

 

OOOH, me...me, I wanna run that. Only problem is I need to be a passenger in YOUR car to do it!!!!

[braknl8]

I agree that data is awesome... just so long as you use the tools correctly. It sounds like you guys have the right ideas vs. the beginner student that responds, "To run under a 2:10" when I ask what his goals for the weekend are at VIR.

 

2:10? HA! You must not be familiar with the current SE DE2 group. I'm planning on throwing on some hoho a6's in oct and bustin' out a 1:58.xx in one of my DE3-TT3 sessions! I'm kidding, of course. Absolutely no messing with it while on track...agreed 100%. Drive while you are driving. Things like friction circles can be tremendously helpful when trying to maximize braking and turn-in, I believe, when reviewed after-the-fact.

[mhoward1]

Other useful tools are vmin, vmax, acceleration curve shapes, v points vs u points and so on. If you can things like brake application, throttle position, and steering angle even more so n

[08Bullitt0572]

I would say the best learning tool to use in DE1 & DE2 is a camera to record your sesssions. I learn a lot from going back and watching them afterward and can usually hear the instructor's comments. Sometimes I am curious about lap times just as a progress check, so I time a few laps on video with a watch.

[Stoopalini]

I've been using Harry's LapTimer Pro since I was signed off to DE2 here in TX.

 

The data can be valuable for analysis in DE3 and above, but for DE1 and DE2, it's not really worth the time to analyze .... BUT: there's more value to having track video than just the data.

 

My videos kept me excited about the next event during long times between events. Nothing like watching your track videos to get you pumped up for the next one. It also helped me remember the track and how I drove it, when returning to the same one.

 

The videos got my friends/family fired up over "driving on a track", and has been the single cause for some of them coming out to an event with me.

 

If you can set-it-and-forget-it, then do it. If you find yourself watching it during your session, then it may be best to not use it yet.

[n80]

The data can be valuable for analysis in DE3 and above, but for DE1 and DE2, it's not really worth the time to analyze ....

 

I'm curious as to why you say that. I've found that using lap times, either recorded by my wife or from the video, is helpful to me (I've only done 3 DE-2 level track days) when comparing fast laps to slow laps. And it seems that adding sector times and corner speeds to what I'm seeing on the video would be even better. (Exit speeds in the carousel and turn 8 at CMP are so critical). And Harry's will also record throttle and brake input (with the right OBD II module) which could be helpful.

 

I may be wrong. Will have to see next month. But again, I have no intention of watching the clock while on track...I'm not there yet.....And, even if the data is limited, the software and hardware to do this are cheap, so no harm done. If it proves valuable and as I move up it might be worth it to talk to Marty about a real data system.

 

Agree with you completely about the other values of video.....I put mine in iTunes and watch them on the big screen via AppleTV.

[n80]

And, since it probably won't be worth all the effort to overlay the data on GoPro video, what I'm hoping to do is have the iPhone directly facing the GoPro (in car) so I can see the data live on the video. Small data won't show up but in 'timer' view I should be able to see lap times and split times on the video.

[mhoward1]

I have to disagree on it not being helpful to DE1 and DE2, and I am only talking about data and not lap timing. It gives both the instructor and the student hard evidence of what is going on and where. Here is two prime examples of data use for both beginners and pros.

 

1) DE1 student is holding the brake longer than needed, with less pressure (IE ridding the brakes), and then waiting too long before getting on the throttle. The instructor can see they cannot process all of this information at the time do to sensory overload, but the since the student is safe he works on more basic items like vision and hearing up while driving. Once the hot lap portion of the session is over, they cannot talk about the braking points, throttle application, and other things to work on for the next session. Sure the instructor can have the same conversations, but now he has a tool that he can SHOW them where this is happening and gives the student a visual as well. If it is an advance student, they may find points of “coasting” that may or may not be obvious to find a few tenths here and there.

 

2) This from the rear world from a professional coach. Driver a and Driver B were driving a shared car in a testing session. Driver A was complaining about oversteer in 2 of the corners, while Driver B was complaining about a push at corner exit on two other particular turns. Since this was going to be a shared drive, they wanted to have a setup that made both drivers happy. Turns out driver B was slowing down more for the turn ins but applying more throttle, this was the difference between the two driving results. They had each driver adjust their corner speeds slightly, and both were much “happier” with the car set ups. I don’t think the crew told them that they didn’t change anything on the cars.

[mhoward1]

And, since it probably won't be worth all the effort to overlay the data on GoPro video, what I'm hoping to do is have the iPhone directly facing the GoPro (in car) so I can see the data live on the video. Small data won't show up but in 'timer' view I should be able to see lap times and split times on the video.

 

 

I think harry's exports to both CSV and VBOformats, so you have a few choices here.

 

You can import the video to your phone and have Harry's do the overlay, or export it and have somehting like Race Render or RCtoAVI(free) do the overlay.

 

Harry's can also video live.

[n80]

I think RaceRender and most others are Windows only. Would love a Mac version.

[mhoward1]

I think RaceRender and most others are Windows only. Would love a Mac version.

 

 

The RC program and RaceRender should run and has been tested under BootCamp, Parallels, and CrossOver.

[Stoopalini]

I'm curious as to why you say that.

 

It's simply my opinion. DE1 and DE2 sessions are usually riddled with "moving chicanes", so I never really analyzed my data from those sessions. I see the data coming into play after a driver has the basic skills and concepts down and is looking to refine.

 

If a driver is at the point where he's tweaking brake zones by the foot, and trying to maximize corner exit speeds by single mph increments, (ie: looking to refine his technique), I think they belong in DE3 and out of 1&2 sessions. If they fail a check-out ride for DE3, there are still areas in basic driving and awareness which need improvement, I feel a ride along with a good instructor is much more valuable than trying to decrypt the data (especially since understanding the data requires a strong working knowledge of what it should look like).

 

An instructor riding with a DE1 or DE2 student should be easily able to identify incorrect braking and race line techniques without data. If the instructor is doing a professional coaching session, I absolutely agree the data is extremely valuable; but most of the folks I know who have spent the $$ on these types of sessions were already beyond DE1/2 ...

 

Just my $0.02, and I'm really slow, so consider the source

[n80]

DE-2 in NASA-SE is typically solo, but I agree that an instructor in the car is more valuable than data collection/review.

[Stoopalini]

Right, fairly certain DE2 is solo in all regions. In TX, DE1 and DE2 are in the same run group, so although you are running without an instructor, you're still lumped in with all the 1st timers out there. De3 is broken out in TX, so it's the first group where you get to really run with fast guys and see what you can do.