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Another Question on Seats + Harnesses + Bars


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I've read literally 50 threads on 10 different forums on different combinations involving:

 

a) factory vs fixed back seat

b) 3pt vs 4/5/6

c) harness bar vs roll bar vs cage

 

I know ultimately, fixed back + cage + 6pt + HANS is the ideal setup. However, for someone who drives to/from the track, I would like to know if the following is safe:

 

fixed back (FIA certified) + factory 3pt seat belt + 4pt weld-in roll bar (no harnesses, no harness bar) - or is this an example of half arsing it and the factory setup is safer? And let's assume the fixed back seat is compatible with the factory seat belt.

 

I would think this better than factory since:

 

1) race seats keeps you planted

2) you get the benefit of rollover protection

3) the car still remains street legal and you don't have to worry about banging your helmet-less head on a cage during the street.

4) the factory 3pt is safer than a 4pt or a 5/6 without harness bar

 

I think in a year or so my budget will allow for a cage and maybe a trailer but as of now, I'd like to participate in another year of safe driving events. Can someone enlighten me if my rationale above is correct? And no need to guilt trip or blast me about how I may as well take out a life insurance policy for my family (as that was some of the responses I've seen before lol), genuinely asking because I am curious.

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I've read literally 50 threads on 10 different forums on different combinations involving:

 

a) factory vs fixed back seat

b) 3pt vs 4/5/6

c) harness bar vs roll bar vs cage

 

I know ultimately, fixed back + cage + 6pt + HANS is the ideal setup. However, for someone who drives to/from the track, I would like to know if the following is safe:

 

fixed back (FIA certified) + factory 3pt seat belt + 4pt weld-in roll bar (no harnesses, no harness bar) - or is this an example of half arsing it and the factory setup is safer? And let's assume the fixed back seat is compatible with the factory seat belt.

 

I would think this better than factory since:

 

1) race seats keeps you planted

2) you get the benefit of rollover protection

3) the car still remains street legal and you don't have to worry about banging your helmet-less head on a cage during the street.

4) the factory 3pt is safer than a 4pt or a 5/6 without harness

 

I think in a year or so my budget will allow for a cage and maybe a trailer but as of now, I'd like to participate in another year of safe driving events. Can someone enlighten me if my rationale above is correct? And no need to guilt trip or blast me about how I may as well take out a life insurance policy for my family (as that was some of the responses I've seen before lol), genuinely asking because I am curious.

 

 

What you have described sounds perfectly ok for a dual purpose car. You have done your research and have come to the best solution for your budget and needs.

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I've read literally 50 threads on 10 different forums on different combinations involving:

 

a) factory vs fixed back seat

b) 3pt vs 4/5/6

c) harness bar vs roll bar vs cage

 

I know ultimately, fixed back + cage + 6pt + HANS is the ideal setup. However, for someone who drives to/from the track, I would like to know if the following is safe:

 

fixed back (FIA certified) + factory 3pt seat belt + 4pt weld-in roll bar (no harnesses, no harness bar) - or is this an example of half arsing it and the factory setup is safer? And let's assume the fixed back seat is compatible with the factory seat belt.

 

I would think this better than factory since:

 

1) race seats keeps you planted

2) you get the benefit of rollover protection

3) the car still remains street legal and you don't have to worry about banging your helmet-less head on a cage during the street.

4) the factory 3pt is safer than a 4pt or a 5/6 without harness

 

I think in a year or so my budget will allow for a cage and maybe a trailer but as of now, I'd like to participate in another year of safe driving events. Can someone enlighten me if my rationale above is correct? And no need to guilt trip or blast me about how I may as well take out a life insurance policy for my family (as that was some of the responses I've seen before lol), genuinely asking because I am curious.

 

 

What you have described sounds perfectly ok for a dual purpose car. You have done your research and have come to the best solution for your budget and needs.

 

 

+1. I was in the same boat not too long ago and from all my research, if you do it any other way than how you describe you are better staying as you are however, if you do just what you describe you will be in good shape.

 

That being said, I will say that I don't think you'll fully "become one" with the seat/car until you are strapped into it.

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I am at the same point. I'm looking for a seat that holds me in place more than adding additional safety. My plan, whenever the budget allows, is even simpler. Fixed back race seat that does not require a rear brace that I will bolt in place (prefabbed bracket) and can use with factory three point seat belt. I would get more secure seating and no compromise in safety. This seat would come out after the track event and oem seat goes back in. At a latter date I hope to add a bolt in roll bar (Kirk probably) with integral harness attachment bar for some additional safety and even more secure seating. Would still remove harness and racing seat after track event.

 

I hope to do all this with DE-2 prize money.

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Once you do it a cpl of times it only takes about 15 minutes to swap in a race seat. I leave my harness bar and shoulder harnesses in the car all the time and before a track weekend bolt in the race seat with lap/sub belts. It takes longer the first couple of times when you are figuring out the fit and placement but once you get it, it's cake. It's actually so easy that I usually bolt in a passenger setup, identical to mine, so instructors will have a nice place to ride.

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For the past several years I have run with a harness bar, 5 point harness, and a race seat that are comfortable enough for a daily driver. You can go all the way through TT with this setup. Still the best money you can spend is on seat time. When you buy a race seat make sure that you can use the OEM seat belt with it.

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For the past several years I have run with a harness bar, 5 point harness, and a race seat that are comfortable enough for a daily driver. You can go all the way through TT with this setup. Still the best money you can spend is on seat time. When you buy a race seat make sure that you can use the OEM seat belt with it.

 

 

Is this the safest thing to be doing though? I dont know from first hand experience or anything, but just thinking from a logical standpoint, a 5 point harness and racing seat without at least a roll bar in a rollover type accident seems like it could be very dangerous. Or am I off base here?

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This is often debated. The risk of a 'perfect-storm' roof collapse is obviously there but there is no hard data to know what the risk actually is. And I'm sure it depends on the car. Last week in the DE-2 class at CMP Kim mentioned that the C5 has a very robust b-pillar and so this might not even be an issue in a C5.

 

I've priced bolt-in roll cages for my 350Z ($400) but I'm not sure they completely alleviate the roof collapse issue since the roof line slopes down steeply behind the seats and the bar height is at or below the top of the seat back (from the photos I've seen). Still better than nothing I suppose.

 

Anyway, I'm still waffling. I think the risk of a roof collapse that breaks your neck or skull because you are strapped into a racing seat is statistically small in relation to the benefits you get from the harness both in terms of safety and car control. I may have a different opinion tomorrow.

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The true problem is that it's like an engine. No one part is going to be a saving-grace. Each component relies on another, matched component, to do its job correctly. The cage (a full cage not a roll bar), seat, harness, hnr should be looked at as one system as neither are of much increased value w/ out the other. Its unfortunate but it is, all the same. Kinda like brake pads, there's just not a dual-purpose that is going to do street or track very well. I wish it wasn't the case as my car is still a street car as well but the farther I get in this game the more I realize how poorly these "double-duty" cars do each of their intended purpose, when adapted to attempt to play another role. Has me strongly considering a dedicated car....then comes the trailer, tow vehicle, etc. never ending!

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Agreed. And a dedicated track car might be in my future too. But I have to say that there is something special to me about a car that can be fun and reasonably safe (meets NASA and other organizations standards) on the track and does a good job as a DD, touring car and even grocery getter. Its one of the things that I love about my 350z. I bought it used so I don't have a lot of dough tied up in it. zero spent on mods and at the end of a track weekend I peel the numbers of and change back to street pads and it is fun and comfortable as a DD. I just think that is cool.

 

I think that sort of appeal might last up through DE-3.........or until I hit a tire wall.

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The farther I get in this game the more I realize how poorly these "double-duty" cars do each of their intended purpose, when adapted to attempt to play another role.

 

 

I think this sums it up perfectly, and I'm beginning to realize the same thing.

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Ezra Dyer (Automobile magazine) said that everything you or a manufacturer do to make a car better for the track makes it worse for daily use....or something to that effect. And he's right.

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So, would anyone frown upon me putting a harness bar and harness in my Subaru (I have one with a SCHROTH 4pt - yes, it's FIA approved)? These cars have pretty good roll over protection from the factory and the stock seats are amazing. They sit pretty darn low as well. I think I would really have to slam into something really fast in order to crush the roof to the point of it possibly breaking my neck.

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So, would anyone frown upon me putting a harness bar and harness in my Subaru (I have one with a SCHROTH 4pt - yes, it's FIA approved)? These cars have pretty good roll over protection from the factory and the stock seats are amazing. They sit pretty darn low as well. I think I would really have to slam into something really fast in order to crush the roof to the point of it possibly breaking my neck.

 

 

Nope, as long as you don't use the harness on the street (where, in the event of a crash your body wouldn't meet the airbag but head would = snap) ...unless you wear your hnr on the street just for the funny looks. Nice car, by-the-way...saw your other post.

 

 

George- I do get the coolness factor of a double-duty car but with a fairly new family (3 yr old son that absolutely LOVES the track!), the faster I get the more I want to do all I can as insurance and am just coming to the realization that a double-duty probably isnt' the best I can do in that regard. Wish is was because as you said, it's nice to beat on them all weekend, clean them up and send them right right back into "civilization" just like it never happened.

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I think I would really have to slam into something really fast in order to crush the roof to the point of it possibly breaking my neck.

 

I have been told by many wise people that the safety equipment is there for the worst case scenario. Ultimately it is up to you and what your instructor is comfortable with. Personally, I would not go on track with a car that had a 4 point belt or a harness bar with no rollover protection. To each his own though.

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Personally, I would not go on track with a car that had a 4 point belt or a harness bar with no rollover protection. To each his own though.

 

What's the difference, when speaking of a rollover situation, in a oem 3 pt vs a harness/bar? If the roof is coming to meet the seat how does one help over the other (I guess I can see the slight chance of slipping out of the 3pt, into the floor but...)? I ask because I'm not one of the wise folk and am just looking to be educated.

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Personally, I would not go on track with a car that had a 4 point belt or a harness bar with no rollover protection. To each his own though.

 

What's the difference, when speaking of a rollover situation, in a oem 3 pt vs a harness/bar? If the roof is coming to meet the seat how does one help over the other (I guess I can see the slight chance of slipping out of the 3pt, into the floor but...)? I ask because I'm not one of the wise folk and am just looking to be educated.

 

This is what I was thinking as well. There is definitely more "wiggle room" with a 3pt.

 

No worries of the "submarine" effect with my 4pt harness. It's FIA approved.

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Personally, I would not go on track with a car that had a 4 point belt or a harness bar with no rollover protection. To each his own though.

 

What's the difference, when speaking of a rollover situation, in a oem 3 pt vs a harness/bar? If the roof is coming to meet the seat how does one help over the other (I guess I can see the slight chance of slipping out of the 3pt, into the floor but...)? I ask because I'm not one of the wise folk and am just looking to be educated.

 

The thinking is that the 3 pt seat belt would allow your body and head to move off to one side in the event something like that would happen. With a 4 or more pt. harness you are stuck in that upright postion, and with no roof colapse protection (ie, rollbar/cage) it could dangerous in a worst case scenario.

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The thinking is that the 3 pt seat belt would allow your body and head to move off to one side in the event something like that would happen. With a 4 or more pt. harness you are stuck in that upright postion, and with no roof colapse protection (ie, rollbar/cage) it could dangerous in a worst case scenario.

 

That makes more sense than what I was able to come up with. Thanks

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I think all of the concerns expressed here are valid. However, I think you have to weigh other potential benefits of the harness bar set up against the chance of a roll over or roof impact that is sufficient to compress the roof well below the line of the back of the seat. In other words, it is unlikely that the addition of a harness bar, harnesses and a racing seat represent a net loss of overall safety. There are still likely to be plenty of added safety benefits from the setup if nothing other than improved car control.

 

Chris, I understand how you feel about safety and having a new family. And not that I have a death wish or anything but my kids are grown and going out in a flash of gas, fire, rubber and metal before the Alzheimers sets in is not the worst thing that could happen to me. That's a joke of course.....I'm not fast enough to to accomplish such a 'flash'.........I think I'll need a Corvette for that.

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As others have said, anything more than a 3 point will keep you upright and could prevent you from contorting out of the way of a roof collapse. I have read through the Schroth literature and don't know if I totally buy the anti submarine technology they are claiming. I like the security of the physical strap keeping the lap belt down. That is just my take on safety. To each his own though.

 

Also, these things get easier as your car moves further away from dual purpose. Unfortunately, safety is another one of those things that gets compromised as well.

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Great thread, and very timely for me. I struggle with the dual purpose car, but mainly because I don't want to commit a track only car for 4 or 5 weekends a year of DE. So I went down the familiar road of slowly converting my G35 sedan to more of a track-worthy ride, as my skill improves.

 

I did a BBK with CarboTech XP10/XP8, higher rate springs, adjustable coilovers and sways to work on stopping and handling first. The OEM brakes were way overworked at RA with Star Specs. Other than that, it is still "mostly" stock and is quite fun on the track. I will say that I do not DD this car any more, so it mostly sits in the garage. But, it is still important for me to have it street legal, although it rides so stiff and the brakes squeal so much that my wife prefers another ride.

 

But, the OEM mostly flat leather drivers seat left a bunch to be desired. I probably spent as much energy bracing myself with my legs, as I did concentrating on driving. My dilemma was like most in that I needed a better seat, but am not ready to commit to a roll bar and harnesses.

 

So, after much deliberating, I wound up just installing a Sparco one-piece seat, the Ergo model, which has a removable halo. I found a bracket designed for the car that has a location to mount the stock seat belt buckle, so I retain the OEM 3 point belt system for both passenger and driver. Passenger side is stock.

 

I also opted for an R3 head and neck restraint because it is not reliant on the belts or harnesses to work, so I can use it with the new seat and OEM 3 point belts.

 

I will be at RA in March to try the seat and R3 for the first time on track, but just test driving around my 'hood tells me that the improvement in seating will be tremendous.

 

Next, I will decide whether to strip the back seat and do a 4 point bar/harness bar/ harness setup, but if I do, then I need to do the passenger side as well.

 

Mike

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The oem 'cloth' seats in my Z are pretty good. They are sort of grippy so I do not really slide around in them but the lateral bolsters (thigh and flank) are just not high enough and I have to brace myself with me knees. I have popped the speaker grill out doing this and I have worn blisters on my left knee. John Evans (Laze1) said that he used to wear knee pads before he converted his Z to a race car. I took his advice and bought a $3 pair of foam knne pads from Home Depot and it makes a big difference in both comfort and support. I also use a C-G Lock which helps as well and if I get a race seat that I use with the OEM three point I will continue to use the C-G Lock for sure.

 

I'm not advocating knee pads and a C-G Lock as a perfect solution but for those of you who are tight-wads like me, they are a definite step up from the OEM set up alone.

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a lot of folks have advocated angel pads on another forum I frequent. I have never used them so can't comment to their effectiveness but those who have, commented that it was about the best compromise out there.

 

http://angelwingstech.com/store/

 

Of course I'm in no way affiliated just contributing options to the conversation.

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