NOOBIE!!!

[Dowski12]

Like the title says, I'm yet another noob to the track scene and just wanted to introduce myself and get alittle information from you more experienced gentlemen. My name is Stephen, I'm 27, and I currently drive an 01 Audi TT225 (modified)

 

I've kinda done things alittle backwards from what I've heard suggested. I am currently in the process of building my car, which I never entended to track in competition (except for maybe the occational midnight drag), but now the idea of racing around a track sounds like one hell of a good time. Being as that I haven't built my car for any specific class, I'm pretty sure I'm gonna end up somewhere a little less suited for my car, but I'm mostly here for the fun factor anyway. This season I hope to get as many HPDE sessions under my belt as possible at MMP, and eventually move on to TT events. One of my first questions, being as I'm new to all of this classifaction stuff, is where exactly would my car fall for its BTM classification? I drive an 01 Audi TT225, base wieght is 3208, hp is 225 and AWD. Now my list of modifications is quite long and I'm not gonna list them out here since I'm sure no one wants to scan through all of that non-sense, but as far as classing for larger turbos, how does that normally work? I'm gonna be running a PTE 5858 which will put me somewhere around 500-550hp, realistically what can I expect as far as being bumped up in class? I know I dont really need to worry about most of this for a while, but I like to plan ahead, and in understanding the classification system I hope to maybe tailor my car more to a specific class in the future. I've been scanning through this forum for a while now learning as much as I can, and it seems like their is a great deal of knowledge, and a good deal of people willing to share their experience, so any info you guys can give me would be greatly appreciated.

[TurboShortBus]

OK, first things first:

 

1. To earn your way into TT, you will need a good amount of experience and seat time on road courses. The best way to accomplish this is to work your way up the NASA HPDE ladder, starting with HPDE-1 all the way through HPDE-4. Depending on your abilities and learning curve, this might take half of a season, or it might take several seasons. This is done for your benefit, as it doesn't do you any good to turn you loose when you aren't ready, which could cost you a car (or more).

 

2. Many people will remind you that HPDE and TT are not racing, as you gain nothing by passing another car.

 

3. The answers to just about all of your questions (especially those about vehicle modifications) can be found between the TT rules and the TT classification forms, all of which can be found at: http://www.nasa-tt.com/rules

 

4. If you don't see your particular car listed in the rules, then send an e-mail to National Director Greg Greenbaum ([email protected]) and request a base classification.

 

5. Resist the urge to modify the hell out of your car at this point, especially considering that you could be in HPDE for the immediate future. The key to extensive seat time is vehicle reliability, and a high-strung 550 hp 4-banger doesn't sound reliable to me. Save your money for HPDE events, tires, and brake pads.

 

6. See # 5 above.

 

Good luck!

Mark

[kartermdb]

^^ #1 and 5.

 

As a side note, regardless of your power level, at your first track day you will get passed by a 100 hp miata. It is extremely humbling. Spend your money learning the car as you have it currently and keeping it reliable. The car will be better than you for a while, depending on your current level of knowledge.

[Dowski12]

Thanks for the reply fellas,

 

I agree 100% with what you all are saying. First HPDE1 session is March 29-30 so I'm hoping that my car will be done by then. Honestly I would rather take my wife's Lancer ES but I dont think it will pass inspection (check engine light). I really don't have any intention to further modify my car at this point. It was origionally just going to be a street monster but now the track is calling!!! At this point I would much rather focus on learning my car since its definitley going to out perform my abilities and probably will for quite some time. I have no issues with staying in HPDE for as long as it takes, learning everything I can to make me a better driver. Like I said before, I'm more interested in the fun factor more then anything.

 

Concerning classifiactions, I think I got a grasp on the concept, its just certain things that I was a little confused on. Mostly how many classes the larger turbo would bump me up since it's basically at the regional directors discretion where to classify me. I will definitely look into it more though and email Greg G. if I need any further help.

 

P.S.- A high-strung 550hp 4-banger is only as reliable as the builder makes it

 

Thanks for all the help

[TurboShortBus]

Concerning classifiactions, I think I got a grasp on the concept, its just certain things that I was a little confused on. Mostly how many classes the larger turbo would bump me up since it's basically at the regional directors discretion where to classify me. I will definitely look into it more though and email Greg G. if I need any further help.

This is pretty clear in item C2 on the classification forms.

 

When in doubt, refer to #3 above.

 

Mark

[PoBoyR6]

With 500+hp in an Audi TT you will be into the power/weight classes straight away so just use this handy spreadsheet http://949racing.com/server/tech/NASA_S%20...%20v0_01.xlsx to figure out how to tailor your car, although you'll most likely end up in TT1...which is going to be very spendy to run at the front. PT 1-2-3 = TT 1-2-3.

 

Since you are just starting out in TT I would do as others have suggested and start with a mild(er) state of tune for the car, learn and progress up gradually. You may end up enjoying it more in the "slower" TT classes, like TT3 which is shaping up to have huge fields (at least in the Texas region), thus more competition to gauge your progess against and if you are near the front you'll have a better chance of winning tire contingencies.

[Dowski12]

Thanks for the info and suggestions. After figuring power/weight plus mods, TT1 is looking to be the most likely place I'll end up. I agree a milder tune would be a great idea, my programing allows me to make as many files as I need, so that would be easy enough, but I think I'll just get a second, smaller turbo for track events. My setup is pretty much all V-banded so it wont take much to swap turbos before heading out to the track. That way I can lower the power without having the slow spool of the larger turbo. I'll see how my car performs at its first DE event and then go from there.

 

Thanks for all the help.

[ScottBell]

. Honestly I would rather take my wife's Lancer ES but I dont think it will pass inspection (check engine light).

 

 

This would be absolutely the best thing you could possibly do! Tech has no concern about a CEL. Make sure it has good pads, bleed the brakes, put air in the tires and go learn. I've said it time and time again; the goal of the first DE events is to learn how it feels to get a car to the limit. The lower the limit the better.

 

I should put this in my sig: It's more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow.

[Dowski12]

Thanks for the reply

 

I couldn't agree more with that last statement. Figure I'll setup a tune with a really low boost cap, the motor is a 2.0 stroker so it would still be alot of fun without a ton of boost. At this point it makes me wish I would have kept my car simple and saved a grip load of money. Lots of horses under the hood sounds great until you don't want to use them, haha.

 

The wife's lancer is a heep. It has issues with starting and on occasion, will die while idleing. Don't really want to end up missing my first DE because I can't even get the car started. I'm not 100% sure whats wrong with it. I've replaced all the normal stuff, which helped for a day or two, and then I had 2 seperate shops take a look and even they couldn't figure out what the issue was. It's getting trashed soon anyway.

[xcrider2005]

Just go buy someones fully built SpecE30, Spec3, or Spec Miata. It will be cheaper than modifying your car. It will be safer, since it will be caged. You will learn how to drive a slow car fast. If you decide to eventually go racing, there should be deep fields depending on what region you are in. Just my two cents.

[Dowski12]

Haha...my car is just about done, and paid for so buying a fully built spec car wouldn't be very cost effecient at this point. Personnally I would rather buy a cheap street car to run DE's for the time being, until my driving skills improve. It wouldn't take much to put a cage, seats, and harnesses in my car, and I'm sure it would be cheaper then going out and buying an already track prep'd one. Only thing stopping me from doing either of those things is the wife!!! It's her turn to get a new car so untill that happens, I'm pretty much SOL

 

Not sure what the car count is for classes in the Utah region. I posted in there, just to introduce myself and get to know some local drivers, but haven't gotten any responses yet. My post has been the most recent in that forum for about a week, so it doesn't seem like Utah if very active on the track.

[retlaw]

keep in mind ... if you install "racing seats" and 5 or 6 pt harnesses, you need to make the passenger side equal to the drivers side

[kbrew8991]

some regions just aren't chatty on the boards even though they may host large events / seasons / etc

[Dowski12]

keep in mind ... if you install "racing seats" and 5 or 6 pt harnesses, you need to make the passenger side equal to the drivers side

 

Absolutely, If I was an instructor in a car like mine and saw that the person I was trying to teach was sitting in a full race setup, and I was reduced to sitting in an OEM seat and a 3pt harness, I'm pretty sure I would just walk away from that situation .

 

some regions just aren't chatty on the boards even though they may host large events / seasons / etc

 

That sucks, I would think that at the very least an instructor would jump in and leave a comment. The info I've gotten from you gentlemen has been helpful and much appreciated, but it would be nice to get some local driver experience of MMP before I get out there on the track.

[Dowski12]

I've been thinking alot about getting a car for DE's, but I want it to be fun, and I came across a 1980 Datsun 280ZX with 90,000 miles for $2500 . Car looks amazing, but to be honest its something I wouldn't mind putting into a wall if it came down to it. Would this make for a good leaners car, and maybe a little farther down the road, with a couple of suspension mods, make a decent track car?

[TurboShortBus]

When looking for a DE car, check websites like RockAuto.com, AutoZone, Advance Auto parts, Carbotech, etc. and see how much consumables cost...rotors, pads, calipers, clutches, wheel bearings, etc. You will either be replacing these frequently or you will find the weak links quickly. Cars that are a dime a dozen on Craigslist typically have cheap replacement parts (Miatas, E30s, etc.). Other cars that seem cool and cheap at first glance tend to get pricey (944s). Or, choose something that you are familiar with. I can work on Mustangs with my eyes closed from my drag racing days, so now I'm stuck trying to get the ill-handling buckets to go around corners.

 

And yes, the general rule of thumb is that if you can't afford to push the car off a cliff, then it shouldn't be on the track.

 

Mark

[EricJo]

For a DE car, these guys probably have the most information:

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/

 

Their default answer is: "buy a Miata".

Edited March 3, 2013 by Guest

[Dowski12]

And yes, the general rule of thumb is that if you can't afford to push the car off a cliff, then it shouldn't be on the track.

 

Mark

 

Thats whats been pushing me to get another car. With all the money I have invested in my Audi, I can't imagine even scratching the paint...haha

 

For a DE car, these guys probably have the most information:

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/

 

Their default answers is: "buy a Miata".

 

Thanks for the link. Sorry to say, I'm not a Miata fan. I know they can be alot of fun but it's one of those cars that I can't imagine myself behind the wheel of. I almost pulled the trigger on a full tube frame miata about two years ago, but after alot of back and forth, I just couldn't bring myself to dish out the cash for a car I don't even like.

[soundguydave]

When it comes to picking a car to DE with, there are only a few questions you need to ask yourself...

 

1) How much am I looking for the "cool" factor, and how much am I focused on learning how to drive? I'm another member of the Mustang Mafia, and I think I do a decent job, but one of the most educational experiences I've had on track was racing a 944SPEC car for a weekend, and suddenly realizing that in THAT car, the skinny pedal on the right really doesn't do much, and I absolutely need to nail the fundamentals. If you want to learn, get a momentum car! Miata, 944, Elise, etc. EVERYTHING you learn there will help you when you start stepping up the power.

2) FWD, RWD, or AWD? Personal opinions here, but the FWD is a completely different animal, with necessarily different responses to control input. With the exceptions of grossly excessive entry speed and trail-braking, EVERYTHING leads to understeer! AWD is absolutely awesome, particularly in the rain, but those cars simply shouldn't be able to do some of the things they do. "Killing it" in an EVO just isn't that hard, and the experience translates to nothing else once you take the computers and center diff away. Stick with RWD, since that is what virtually all the "popular" cars to race have for a drivetrain setup.

3) How much do I want to spend on consumables and maintenance? The more "common" the car, the lower the cost of consumables, as a general rule. The lighter the car, the longer the consumables last... In a heavier chassis, you will have larger, more expensive pads and rotors, and replace them two or three times per season, assuming a fairly aggressive schedule. In a lighter chassis, they are smaller, cheaper, and may last an entire season, or more. Your choice. Yes, horsepower is absoultely awesome, but it comes with a LOT of hidden costs.

 

Focus on the above for DE car choice, but realize that over and above all else, SEAT TIME trumps all. Experiential learning is everything in this game, so focus your resources in getting on track as often as you possibly can.

 

When it comes to picking a TT car, though, your priorities may well change. Again, there are several choices you need to make, and you should be doing it with the rule book and your imagination firmly in hand. Are you looking for competition? Are you a the type that lives to adjust things constantly? Engineer new solutions to problems? Are you the guy that simply has to have the fastest car on the grid? When you get into the faster classes, as you would with the Audi boost-buggy on steroids, you're going to run into a lot of high-dollar, extremely modified cars. Assuming 2800lbs, and 550WHP, that puts you in TT1, where you may wind up running against a Riley Daytona Prototype, a V8 Arial Atom, ex Trans-Am tube frame racers, etc.

 

Finally, I'll talk about the elephant in the room... You mention not being able to think about scratching the paint on your Audi. If you're going to be competitive, you will need to push your driving skills right to the edge, and that WILL result in damage. I'm not saying that you are guaranteed to wreck, but even an agricultural excursion can result in some damage. I've replaced my oil cooler several times as the result of non-crash offs, and I won't even mention what I replaced after my close-encounter-of-the-Aarmco-kind. If the Audi is that precious to you, then don't put it on track. If it's only the money that is the factor, then the LAST thing you want to do is shoot for the high-horsepower classes. ALL of those cars (the competitive ones) are expensive. Again, look at something cheap, light, and common, if you want/need to keep expenses and costs down. In short, buy a Miata...

[Dowski12]

Awesome Info, thank you.

 

I really have no interest in competing in the higher classes. I know that even with the power to weight ratio of my audi, it still would be no match for the tube frame cars and what not in TT1. On top of that, with my audi build, its just been one headache after another. It started out as a compound turbo build, which was pretty close to being complete, before my mechanic stopped working on it all together, and I ended up taking it to another shop. Once it got there we found out that pretty much everything that was done to the car at that point was useless for my hp goals, so to keep things simple and to get it done in a more timely manner, I scrapped the compound project and decided to go with a single PTE 5858, AWIC, all on a fully built 2.0 stroker. After all the time and money put in at this point, I really have no interest in wreking the car. I know the more time spent on the track, the more likely you are to make a mistake and damage something, so I think at this point, I'll save the audi for the street and maybe an occational track day, and buy something I don't mind demolishing, if it comes down to it. Worrying about damaging my car just seems like an unnecessary distraction when I could be more focused on my driving.

 

I agree that learning to drive is the most important thing. With my very limited experience, I really hope to get out there and learn all I can. I hear about all these guys that have been able to solo at their first DE's, to me that sounds like a really bad idea. Honestly I think it makes more sense to want to have an instructor for as long as possible. That way you can take advantage of their knowledge and use it to improve alot faster than if you were to run solo and basically be teaching yourself as you go.

 

RWD is the plan at this point. My Audi is AWD, which I admit is nice, but I really think it would hurt me in the long run. I've heard alot of people say that it can mask your mistakes and really doesn't help to make you a better driver. I would much rather be in a car that will help push me to be a better drive than something that will get me around the track faster right out the gate.

 

As far as cost for consumables, maintenance, and track time, I think I'm like everyone else in regards to the fact that no one wants to spend more then they have to. Only difference to me is that if I am going to buy a specific car then the cost of consumables isn't anything that I'm not going to be prepared to pay since this is something that I really want to get out there and do. I'm not the richest guy around but I really dont want to buy a vehicle, strictly based on the price of consumables.

 

I know they have a classifieds section on this forum, but where else does eveyone go to look for good track cars?

[soundguydave]

 

I agree that learning to drive is the most important thing. With my very limited experience, I really hope to get out there and learn all I can. I hear about all these guys that have been able to solo at their first DE's, to me that sounds like a really bad idea. Honestly I think it makes more sense to want to have an instructor for as long as possible. That way you can take advantage of their knowledge and use it to improve alot faster than if you were to run solo and basically be teaching yourself as you go.

 

And right there, you have shown the PERFECT attitude. Too many guys (girls too!) get the testosterone flowing, and make being first to solo in their group a priority. I've been instructing for more than a few years now, and I STILL grab fellow instructors for a ride-along every chance I get! It simply pays dividends.

 

RWD is the plan at this point. My Audi is AWD, which I admit is nice, but I really think it would hurt me in the long run. I've heard alot of people say that it can mask your mistakes and really doesn't help to make you a better driver. I would much rather be in a car that will help push me to be a better drive than something that will get me around the track faster right out the gate.

 

Momentum car. Miata.

 

As far as cost for consumables, maintenance, and track time, I think I'm like everyone else in regards to the fact that no one wants to spend more then they have to. Only difference to me is that if I am going to buy a specific car then the cost of consumables isn't anything that I'm not going to be prepared to pay since this is something that I really want to get out there and do. I'm not the richest guy around but I really dont want to buy a vehicle, strictly based on the price of consumables.

I hear where you're coming from, but consumables can really add up, if you track the car a lot. For example, for the 2013 season, I'm staring at a tire budget of six SETS of R-compound tires. If I was driving a 944 or a Miata instead of a Mustang, I would use half (or less) the number of tires, AND the tires would cost half (or less) each.... Add in brakes and fuel, and that can be substantial. Granted, I'm not running TT anymore, but the principle still applies.

 

I know they have a classifieds section on this forum, but where else does eveyone go to look for good track cars?

Buy a used race car from somebody that's upgrading or getting out. They're usually 90+% of the way there, have the RIGHT mods, and you'll pay $.50 on the dollar for what you get, as opposed to building. If you're the tinkering/engineering type, and get off on the build itself, great, otherwise buy a used race car.

 

Best bet, go to the next NASA event and watch the races. Miatas may be relatively slow, but there's plenty of action in the pack, and making them go fast takes skill. Failing that, think 944SPEC, maybe SpecE30 (BMW), or look at TTD-TTE cars in the paddock. Don't be afraid to chat with the owners, either, most of us will chat for hours at the drop of a hat...

[Dowski12]

I know the miata would be my best bet, but I'm a pretty big guy so its probably not the best choice for me. Also I cant really explain why but I just dont like them . I've driven them before (not on a track obviously) and theres just something about that car that doesn't agree with me. Now the 944 is something I could get my hands on for around $1500 and personally wouldn't mind owning one. If you haven't been able to tell by now, I'm kind of a euro nut. I'm pretty much in the same situation that you are, as I can work on my 1.8T blind folded. Learning the 944 wouldn't pose too much of a challenge, and having to learn a new motor would be ok because I would have to learn the miata if I was to go that route. I think I'll look into the price on consumables for the 944 and see what kinda budget I would be looking at. I can't imagine they would be super expensive, but it is a porsche so you never know.

 

I plan on making it to a DE at the end of next month so I will be sure to get as much info as I can from the other drivers. I'm the same way when it comes to cars, get me started and it never ends.

 

Thanks for all the help, its much appreciated

Edited March 4, 2013 by Guest

[TurboShortBus]

As a suggestion, it would probably be more accurate if this thread shifted over to the HPDE forum at this point.

 

Link: http://www.nasaforums.com/viewforum.php?f=1

 

Mark

[getfast]

Moved to HPDE forum as suggested.

 

Recommend E30 or E36 BMW 3 series non-M. Cheaper to fix and maintain than 944... and not slower. But both are also not necessarily faster than a well driven Miata

[t500hps]

Just saw this since it entered "HPDE". I started 2 years ago and can tell you that you will either drive your car at 80%.....or run off the track (eventually).

 

I started with my SRT8 Charger for the same reasons.....already owned it, 500hp (400 at the wheels), etc. It has some chips on the front now and I added a few fluid coolers/brakes/tires but finally retired it. Why??? I've gotten over the (A SCRATCH issue) but realized I wanted to come home at night. A car with a full safety cage became a priority when I saw my first car desintegrate against a wall.....and the driver walk away just fine. I blew about $2K modifying that Charger and regret not buying a "track" car sooner.

That high HP car was more like driving through a bunch of drag strips with some turns between them. Last fall I bought a full race ready CMC mustang for probably what you have spent modifying that Audi. It is slower on the straights but turns faster lap times. I push myself and the car more because I don't have to drive it during the week (and I was already trailering the Charger to the track.......which was required to get it home once!).

 

Get a feel for driving with your current car. You WILL need to use racing brake pads/rotor/fluid but everything else can be run like it sits. Don't spend anymore on that car til your able to completely convert it......or do like most of us and buy a car someone can't use anymore.

Edited March 6, 2013 by Guest