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DE3 Passing Question


braknl8
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I hope to be headed for de3 soon and have been contemplating this for a week or so, so I thought I'd get the inside scoop. Tonight I was able to ask my "mentor" and believe I have the best answer, for me, but was curious as to the opinion of the masses.

 

Regarding passing in DE3: In 1 and 2 we have to pass on the right and since we only do so in straights, no issues. But with the introduction of passing in turns I question a couple of things. I know that each situation would be its own judgment call but speaking from a “track ethics” standpoint, do you give the faster car the “line” in the turns? A good example, as it is of a lot of things, Road Atlanta: 10a…if I’m coming down the hill and about to brake...check my mirrors and see somebody barreling down through 9 like a madman, would you point him/her by on the left and surrender the inside line or point right, hold my inside and force the other driver outside? I guess I’m thinking it’s more like a TT scenario where if you saw someone on a flyer you might give them a little track but I don’t know.

 

Thanks in advance for the insite.

 

Chris

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In DE sessions, I point to the inside to be consistent with the "normal" DE rules of passing on the side of the upcoming turn.

 

Ah, that's what I wasn't aware of... so in DE3-4, when allowed to pass in turns, point on the side of the upcoming turn is the rule? Just want to be sure I'm clear.

 

thanks, Kevin!

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As you already noted, each situation is different. At RA turn 10A absolutely give the inside line. The cool thing about moving to DE3 is finding out where to pass and be passed. Adds a whole new world to performance driving. More often than not, you will drive laps just as much off line as on line and learn how to be fast that way.

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In DE sessions, I point to the inside to be consistent with the "normal" DE rules of passing on the side of the upcoming turn.

 

Ah, that's what I wasn't aware of... so in DE3-4, when allowed to pass in turns, point on the side of the upcoming turn is the rule? Just want to be sure I'm clear.

 

thanks, Kevin!

 

 

The rule for DE3 is "anywhere with a point". The rule for DE4 is "anywhere without a point". That means anywhere on the track and any side. The key is to be predictable for the overtaking car.

 

However, when I run in DE3 and 4, I try to stay consistent with what people are accustomed to and that (in my opinion) is the overtaking car goes offline and passes on the inside. In most cases, you should be watching your mirrors enough that you are never "surprised" by a car and there should be full coordination between the two parties involved that pointing to the inside just makes sense and feels right. On the rare circumstance that I have gotten surprised by a car overtaking me at a significant rate, I will judge MY amount of grip and speed and I will make the decision on whether or not I will move offline to let the faster car by on the outside IF I think it is the safer of the two situations.

 

But since we all pass the same way (overtaking car goes offline to take the inside) during DE1 and DE2, it just makes sense to me to continue doing so in DE3 and DE4. It makes the "slower" car predictable.

 

During TTs, we all get to know each other well enough that we can all tell when someone is on a "flyer". When you know that someone is coming up behind you and you know they are on a good lap and you are not, you do what you can to get out of their way to not mess up their lap time. In a DE session, no one is running for times.

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in general as the "pass-ee" you're better off staying on the "racing" line and letting the faster car find it's way by as they wish. You're more predictable that way, and more predictable is safer. I've had people try to "get out of my way" make things way worse than if they hadn't even seen me at all

 

That's not to say it's 100% of the time you should always hog the line (thinking of your theoretical TT situation) but use this more of a "when in doubt..." type thing.

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So basically, for the slower car, run the line and let the faster car go offline to make the pass? Sometimes the slower would need to give up the line for safety, say 10A at RA, where the slower car would take the outside line and give the inside of the turn to the passer?

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So basically, for the slower car, run the line and let the faster car go offline to make the pass? Sometimes the slower would need to give up the line for safety, say 10A at RA, where the slower car would take the outside line and give the inside of the turn to the passer?

 

Think of it this way, you kept your braking line into 10A, once the other car initiates the pass, you must work together to make it safe. So he gave you the braking line, you gave up the corner entry line, and you both made it out safely. It is generally understood that it is the passers job to make the pass safely but it is also the responsibility of the car getting passed to let them do so in a safe manner.

 

Generally in the DE sessions, if a car can't make the pass by turn in on 10A, it is a good idea to try to make the pass on exit. No need to brake dive anybody in DE. in this situation you really shouldn't have to drive off line at all as he is passing you before turn in and when you turn in he is off on his way.

 

I think that made some sort of sense.

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In racing, the general rule is the slower car owns the line. As the passing car, you are responsible for the outcome of the pass.

 

As I am a seasoned DE'er, I run the yellow #4 on my car, therefore I don't give point by's. However, I maintain MY line if I am the slower car. The majority of the guys I've passed with a yellow #4 maintain their line, as they should.

 

Now, in DE-3, and in the slower car, you give the point by on which ever side you feel comfortable with. If you are giving a point by coming into a corner AND IF YOU FEEL COMFORTABLE staying outside, give the inside line. If you're more comfortable on the inside, give the outside line. Again, it's up to the passing vehicle to make the pass safely. Everything is situation specific, but there isn't really a "rule" for point by's related to your question. Just remember in DE-3, passing is anywhere WITH a point by.

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Everything is situation specific, but there isn't really a "rule" for point by's related to your question. Just remember in DE-3, passing is anywhere WITH a point by.

 

In FL we have a rule... Do not 'get out of the way' as it makes you unpredictable, stay on line when you give a point by. Overtaking driver goes offline and it is their responsibility to complete the pass safely.

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Everything is situation specific, but there isn't really a "rule" for point by's related to your question. Just remember in DE-3, passing is anywhere WITH a point by.

 

In FL we have a rule... Do not 'get out of the way' as it makes you unpredictable, stay on line when you give a point by. Overtaking driver goes offline and it is their responsibility to complete the pass safely.

 

Spot on.

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As I am a seasoned DE'er, I run the yellow #4 on my car, therefore I don't give point by's. However, I maintain MY line if I am the slower car. The majority of the guys I've passed with a yellow #4 maintain their line, as they should.

 

To err on the side of caution, I give a point by when TT'ing and racing. Just a good practice IMO.

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As I am a seasoned DE'er, I run the yellow #4 on my car, therefore I don't give point by's. However, I maintain MY line if I am the slower car. The majority of the guys I've passed with a yellow #4 maintain their line, as they should.

 

To err on the side of caution, I give a point by when TT'ing and racing. Just a good practice IMO.

 

Agreed - If I point you by on the inside of 7 or 10A at Road ATL - I'm taking the outside. Good luck.

Now If there is a real fast car I stay predictable and stay on the school line, they can figure a way around me.

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The reason the passed car is to remain on line is so you're predictable. If you think about point-by's, they're not just permission to be overtaken, they're acknowledgement by the overtaken driver that he knows the overtaking driver is there and will be making a pass. That removes any doubt between the two drivers about what the situation is. You don't want to then introduce doubt about where you'll be when he passes. I know, it seems like the courteous thing to do is move out of the way, but in reality, the courteous thing to do is stay on line, and maybe ease lift off the gas a little bit to give the other driver room to get back on line as soon as possible after his pass. That, and a big hearty, unmistakeable, way-out-the-window, you-can't-miss-it point are perfect courtesy.

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If you are being overtaken, don't wait until they are right up on you to give the point-by, either. Give them time to predict where you are going to be so that you don't end up occupying the same space. If you give them the point-by going into turn 10a, give it big and give it early so they can adjust their line and entry into the braking zone. Then make sure you give them room on the inside all the way through the turn and don't squeeze them out. Also leave them some space in case they get loose. Everybody in DE3 is still learning, too.

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I agree with Ken in terms of the car being passed stay on their line and the car doing the passing car needs to find their way around in a safe manner since the passing rules stay the same in terms of responsibility to come off line and make a safe pass. I will add that if you are going to point someone where the pass will occur in the turn the point by should be given before entering the turn. Taking one hand off the wheel in a turn is just asking for trouble.

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Taking one hand off the wheel in a turn is just asking for trouble.

 

 

but, but, but, thaz wut da kewl kidz do on da skreets! I wanna look good first, be fast second.

 

My hands only come off the wheel to shift or pray. On a good lap, I do about equal amounts of both!

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Taking one hand off the wheel in a turn is just asking for trouble.

 

 

but, but, but, thaz wut da kewl kidz do on da skreets! I wanna look good first, be fast second.

 

My hands only come off the wheel to shift or pray. On a good lap, I do about equal amounts of both!

 

You forgot the only other time you take your hands off the wheel is to give your buddy the finger when passing.

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Well, got checked up to DE3 this past weekend (Thanks, John!) so I shall be putting all this good info to use. Just wanted to thank everyone for their time to respond. The thread reads that most are saying the exact same thing, some in different words.

 

This is what I've taken away from this thread:

 

-On track, do your thing...don't spend your time trying to "get out of the way". Drive YOUR line. If someone is faster, they need to figure out a safe way around while I maintain.

-Be aware: points are NOT for when the guy/girl behind you is chewing on your bumper, they should be given in time for the pass to be a smooth transition of position; not the guy running up on you and having to slam on brakes to wait for the point. This makes for smoother sessions for everyone (and prevents you from pointing mid-turn, taking your hand off the wheel). Just a note on that one; If I haven't pointed you buy before I initiate turn-in you're probably not getting one in that turn.

-Use good judgement when pointing; we typically want the passing car to find a way around but if you are on track with a DP car (and aren't outbreaking them in a stock c5z, Mark) and it is thundering up on you, you may want to make an exception and give them the line. Common sense goes a long way.

- Remember that DE is DE. I'm not going to break any track records or win any mugs/tires out there so situational awareness ultimately dictates what happens. If I'm doing everything "right" and happen to meet up with a nutcase I have no issues giving up a turn, line or breaking zone in the interest of safety....back to that common sense thing.

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we typically want the passing car to find a way around but if you are on track with a DP car (and aren't outbreaking them in a stock c5z, Mark) and it is thundering up on you, you may want to make an exception and give them the line

 

But this makes you unpredictable (and may earn you a black flag in my region.) The guy in the DP is already plotting several offline maneuvers around you, as he should be, so tell him which side to pass on and do your thing. As you said,

 

don't spend your time trying to "get out of the way". Drive YOUR line. If someone is faster, they need to figure out a safe way around while I maintain.

 

That applies whether they are 2/10ths faster than you or 20sec faster than you. But everyone has to do it all the time to make it work. To me it's very much:

 

back to that common sense thing.

 

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But this makes you unpredictable (and may earn you a black flag in my region.) The guy in the DP is already plotting several offline maneuvers around you, as he should be, so tell him which side to pass on and do your thing.

 

Got it! Thanks.

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  • 4 weeks later...

I cannot emphasize enough the concept of being predictable. Maintain your line (usually the school line) & give a clear point by. Don't give a wimpy point. Put your arm out the window -- not just a finger. Also, give the point by as early as possible so the passing driver can setup for the pass.

 

Having said that, just because you can give a point by in a corner, it doesn't mean you must give a point by in that corner. Especially for those new to DE3, there will be some corners you'll be comfortable being passed in & others which are more daunting. If you have a driver coming up to you wanting a pass & you are approaching a corner you are not comfortable with giving a point, give that driver a friendly wave INSIDE the car to let them know you see them. Once you've cleared the corner, then point them by. Similarly, just because you get a point in a corner, it does not mean you must take it if you are not comfortable taking it. "Wave off" the point for that corner & wait for the lead car to give you a point by just after track out.

 

Not all drivers are comfortable with being passed or passing in every corner. Remember, the "E" in DE stands for education. Those who are new to DE3 will have a steep learning curve.

 

Even with some drivers not comfortable with giving points or taking points in all corners, a train should not form in DE3. For those of you who have attended my DE3 classroom, you know I have & will "call out" drivers who are consistently at the head of a train.

 

Keep in mind, as well, the SE Region issues a yellow number 4 to drivers in DE3 who want one. This signifies to other drivers that s/he is comfortable with you passing them anywhere on the track without giving you a point-by. It was made yellow & a little difficult to spot on purpose to develop driver awareness. So, if you end up riding the bumper of someone for a few turns & you don't get a point by, look hard for that "4" because odds are, you missed it.

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