ST3 / TT3 - Is it working?

[Cobra4B]

KILL STR Make it ST1/2/3 and TT1/2/3 and watch the kinks work themselves out. Do that and you'll instantly have two more ST3/TT3 cars in MA. I'm about don't with my father's Panoz and then need to put the new engine in mine and I'll be back out there as a ST3/TT3 car. Forcing a car like my father's Panoz into STR is retarded. Mgmt seems to think tube frame cars should crush us, but they don't. Again... fixing a problem that doesn't exist while exacerbating one that does... car counts.

[PushinTheLimit]

KILL STR Make it ST1/2/3 and TT1/2/3 and watch the kinks work themselves out. Do that and you'll instantly have two more ST3/TT3 cars in MA. I'm about don't with my father's Panoz and then need to put the new engine in mine and I'll be back out there as a ST3/TT3 car. Forcing a car like my father's Panoz into STR is retarded. Mgmt seems to think tube frame cars should crush us, but they don't. Again... fixing a problem that doesn't exist while exacerbating one that does... car counts.

 

At one time I thought making a ST3 class would bring more entries. Now I'm almost to the point that PTA worked better and kept the costs down. Since there weren't any classes killed off when ST3 was formed, there seems to be few to jump over to ST3.

[hakeem]

It certainly seems like you could consolidate most NASA classes into just a handful. From what I can tell, only SM and SE30 are strong enough classes to not need consolidation. Anything else appears to be a crapshoot with only a handful of cars per any given race from what I can tell from my own viewpoint and a casual look at the participation numbers from 2012.

 

SU = Anything

ST1 = 5.5:1

ST2 = 8.5:1

ST3 = 10:1

PTA-E = Remain as-is

 

SU, GTSU, AIX becomes SU

STR1, ST1, GTS5 becomes ST1

STR2, ST2, GTS4 becomes ST2

STR3, ST3, AI, GTS3 becomes ST3

HC1-5, PTA-E, GTS1-2 becomes PTA-E

Spec944 becomes PTE/D

Spec Z becomes PTA (?)

CMC becomes PTA/B/C (?)

SM stays SM

SE30 stays SE30

[Cobra4B]

It certainly seems like you could consolidate most NASA classes into just a handful. From what I can tell, only SM and SE30 are strong enough classes to not need consolidation. Anything else appears to be a crapshoot with only a handful of cars per any given race from what I can tell from my own viewpoint and a casual look at the participation numbers from 2012.

 

SU = Anything

ST1 = 5.5:1

ST2 = 8.5:1

ST3 = 10:1

PTA-E = Remain as-is

 

SU, GTSU, AIX becomes SU

STR1, ST1, GTS5 becomes ST1

STR2, ST2, GTS4 becomes ST2

STR3, ST3, AI, GTS3 becomes ST3

HC1-5, PTA-E, GTS1-2 becomes PTA-E

Spec944 becomes PTE/D

Spec Z becomes PTA (?)

CMC becomes PTA/B/C (?)

SM stays SM

SE30 stays SE30

That makes way too much sense... and the guys who bitch and whine about losing their special class would shut up when they were out there racing against 15-20 cars every weekend. It used to be people wanted their tires and if they had enough regulars to win tires they were content. Now tire contingencies have tightened up some and the low car counts = no tires for anyone.

[hakeem]

That makes way too much sense... and the guys who bitch and whine about losing their special class would shut up when they were out there racing against 15-20 cars every weekend. It used to be people wanted their tires and if they had enough regulars to win tires they were content. Now tire contingencies have tightened up some and the low car counts = no tires for anyone.

 

Agreed. If sub-classes or challenges need to exist for whatever reason (ie. CMC) they should be within the main class (PTB or whatever) so that participation in the main classes is not sacrificed.

 

No offense to any CMC racers, but do we really need a specific Camaro/Mustang Challenge, American Iron, and whatever PT classes the cars would otherwise fall into? Same for GTS, HC, etc. It was maddening to see 1 ST3 car, 3-4 AI cars, and 2 GTS3 cars at the last Sonoma event all in separate classes.

[drivinhardz06]

There's also a few that literally changed their A to a 3 and kept on racing.

 

pretty much my level of prep so far. and I washed the car to

 

Brian's OCD slowly wearing off on me. And guess what, I cleaned it and then I lost

 

Dirty cars are faster

[kbrew8991]

they'll fire back with a "hey, grow your own series or give up sell your car and join us - screw you for trying to take us over". And you know, I wouldn't blame them for saying that either.

 

That said we do have a few too many classes. What to do about it going forward... not sure.

[sperkins]

That said we do have a few too many classes. What to do about it going forward... not sure.

Exactly, but I think as long as the NASA national office collects it's annual fees, license fees etc., they couldn't care less how many classes there are. It's going to take a mass exodus for them to reanalyze things, but the problem is that there are no good alternative at the moment. SCCA is grasping for air, NARRA is a rich man's club and who really wants to be a PBOC race regular?

[Disney]

I think we've had a total of 3 unique PT cars i the SE this year. Makes me want to put a mazda badge on my PTE car and go race with SM. Frustrating for sure.

[D_Eclipse9916]

It certainly seems like you could consolidate most NASA classes into just a handful. From what I can tell, only SM and SE30 are strong enough classes to not need consolidation. Anything else appears to be a crapshoot with only a handful of cars per any given race from what I can tell from my own viewpoint and a casual look at the participation numbers from 2012.

 

SU = Anything

ST1 = 5.5:1

ST2 = 8.5:1

ST3 = 10:1

PTA-E = Remain as-is

 

SU, GTSU, AIX becomes SU

STR1, ST1, GTS5 becomes ST1

STR2, ST2, GTS4 becomes ST2

STR3, ST3, AI, GTS3 becomes ST3

HC1-5, PTA-E, GTS1-2 becomes PTA-E

Spec944 becomes PTE/D

Spec Z becomes PTA (?)

CMC becomes PTA/B/C (?)

SM stays SM

SE30 stays SE30

That makes way too much sense... and the guys who bitch and whine about losing their special class would shut up when they were out there racing against 15-20 cars every weekend. It used to be people wanted their tires and if they had enough regulars to win tires they were content. Now tire contingencies have tightened up some and the low car counts = no tires for anyone.

 

Except it doesn't. You are forcing P/W classes into point systems (GTS1/2->PTB/C/D), rulebook cars into points systems (HC1-5 --->PT)

 

Good luck. Different regions have different classes that are popular. I certainly wouldnt want GTS2 and trying to shove those guys into a PT rulebook (they won't, the GTS guys I know like the unlimited mods), and at healthy 7-12 cars in GTS2 alone EVERY EVENT (29 in GTS altogether this past weekend) while PT altogether had a total of 5-7? Yeah...

[jason]

 

Dirty cars are faster

QFT

[robbodleimages]

facts are that the points based classes and the power to weight classes were created and grew independantly. most of them have already reached a generational change of platforms where the old calculations dont fit as well. some not at all.

 

grand am and world challenge and now trans am have classes where the 911, m3, mustang, camaro and others race in the same class and do nicely.

 

when i am in a thunder race and end up tangled up with a bunch of gts cars that would make for a great race but are not in my class and there are 4 of them and 5 of mine i wonder why simple isnt easier.

 

doing a comprehensive rework of the classes would probably be smart. as the cars change the conditions for classing change nasa and scca need to be forward thinking. reactiveness will result in the reduced car counts we are seeing.

 

nasa doesnt want ai cars in gts or st because its a spec class. spec tires mean income for nasa.

[sperkins]

spec tires mean income for nasa.

Why is that?

[robbodleimages]

spec tires mean income for nasa.

Why is that?

 

toyo buys the spec tire rights from nasa. toyo pays nasa.

[Grizlbits]

Rob,

Do you have facts or is this speculation?

Have you seen an actual check from Toyo to NASA?

How much was the check?

 

Or:

Is it possible that NASA negociates purely to keep consistancy for the good of the classes?

Could you be miss informed?

Do you think Toyo makes stupid money from race tires that they can afford to pay NASA a butt load of money? (Not likely)

 

This kind of speculation ticks me off as a business owner who has to spend a lot of time informing the misinformed.

[robbodleimages]

gris. sorry to piss you off. its a holiday and all. this seems like a basic though. i do know that

scca gets paid by bfg pretty good for their nationals program. have i seen a check? no.

 

maybe i have no idea what i am talking about.

 

btw....i didnt see the check nasa got from toyo for the "2012 NASA National Championships Presented by Toyo Tires" either, but I am sure there was one. i didnt say it was a bad thing. in many ways its a good thing. but its a reality.

[svttim]

I have beern trying to get into this for 3 years now. Between Toyo tire shortages in my first year, a wrecked race car year two and now building the car to the ST3 rules all this talk is drivin me bananas and the damn snow is not even gone!

[kbrew8991]

move down south - we're just a couple weeks away from TX's 3rd event of the season. FL or SE will also work.

[svttim]

move down south - we're just a couple weeks away from TX's 3rd event of the season. FL or SE will also work.

 

 

No way FL. TX certainly would consider. Just want a steady set of rules for a while that are worlkable.

[robbodleimages]

tim, so whats wrong with florida? i highly recommend it.

[Balroks]

tim, so whats wrong with florida? i highly recommend it.

 

Srsly, we're gonna have the usual and likely double sprints each day + a 3 hour enduro + autox + likely more south FL trophy girls this round @ Sebring and the usual free beer and pizza at the end of a schweaty day. You can only go wrong if you stay at home or your sh*t isn't ready yet .

[svttim]

tim, so whats wrong with florida? i highly recommend it.

 

Sorry, not dissing Florida. I know the racing is great, the trophy girls, well, dont tell my wife. If I move, I just want out of the humidity.

[ILIKETODRIVE]

AZ = no humidity

 

Just sayin'

[jason]

The humidity was worse in TN than it is in Miami.

[svttim]

Seriously, I cant move anytime soon, wife has to keep working

 

I was speaking about all the negative remarks concerning ST3. I wont blame my non participation all on NASA. I have had my share of budget issues in the last two years that have kept me sidelined. But some of the rules have gotten in my way as well. I wanted to run American Iron, I bought a car that fit that class. I have niether the desire or talent to build my own car. Year one, Toyo tire shortages, year two, rule changes that require me to remove parts from the car or face a disadvantage to cars that are much older. So, without too much whining, convert the car to ST3, even though I may not be competitive.

Yes, I believe there are too many classes. Too many attempts to make everyone happy. NASA has listened to the competitors, as they should. While I believe its the right thing to do, opinions are like........... On the other hand, the rule makers have to be careful to keep the good of the sport and the organization first and foremost, regardless of personal situation. Its a balancing act, one not always easy to achieve.