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Stinger1987

Good call you are right it was 07 and 09. Ken sold the car to Greg. Either way that's a real street car.

 

 

 

The long and the short of it, My personal opinion is NASA made a bad call with TTA -> TT3.

It's over and done and it isn't gonna change back.

Honestly I don't know why I still bitch and moan about it, it's not going to change anything......

 

People's opinions on what I was building/doing and what I and it were capable of are cute and all but the truth is without TTA still around to prove it you (nor I) know not what the car/driver combo were capable of.

 

That kind of dismissive attitude from people is why I built the car in the first place and what I was able to achieve in my rookie season is something I am rightfully proud of.

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drivinhardz06

The long and the short of it, My personal opinion is NASA made a bad call with TTA -> TT3.

It's over and done and it isn't gonna change back.

Honestly I don't know why I still bitch and moan about it, it's not going to change anything......

 

People's opinions on what I was building/doing and what I and it were capable of are cute and all but the truth is without TTA still around to prove it you (nor I) know not what the car/driver combo were capable of.

 

That kind of dismissive attitude from people is why I built the car in the first place and what I was able to achieve in my rookie season is something I am rightfully proud of.

 

I don't think anybody is knocking what you have/haven't done, nor probably not going disagree with your first point. We were just saying the comp level of TT has gotten more and more intense over the years (the sign of a healthy, growing program) and that the days of trying to run at the pointy end of a class with a street car/daily driver have passed in a class with any real competition.

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ILIKETODRIVE

As someone who never even came close to competing in a TTA car (and therefore having an outsiders perspective about the TT1/TT2/TT3 change), I really like it. TTA always seemed like an oddball class on paper. I'm sure it worked for certain cars but it was a very narrow band considering the low whp/lb and the fact that you still had to add up points for everything else.

 

I know of a car that was already built and another in the process of being built that TT3 fits perfectly for them. TTA would have been a 0% chance for these cars and TTS would have been too low of an adjusted whp/lb limit. They both are doing killer aero setups and will be right near their limit for adjusted whp/lb with aero for TT3.

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TurboShortBus
[here's an unrelated trivia question: Ian Stewart won TTC that year in a Mini Cooper S with a time that beat the TTB winner and almost beat the TTA winner. What rule was implemented the following year which directly impacted Ian's winning car?]

652e603f991711e090b112313b10052d_small

Dat's a fargin trick question!

 

There were 2 rules:

C8) Water injection system +6 (alcohol-water mixtures are not permitted)

E2) Non-BTM shocks/struts/dampers with a “Piggy Back” external reservoir (fixed reservoir without a connecting hose) OR

with shaft diameter 40mm or greater—must still take additional points for the springs below +7

 

Mark

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clydesdale

^^^^

 

Ding, ding, ding. I was thinking of item two on the list.

 

Mark really knows his stuff, even if he is a bastage.

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TurboShortBus
Mark really knows his stuff, even if he is a bastage.

That's fargin sneaky bastage, to you.

 

Mark

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evojim
hell a vast majority of the C5 Z06's in TTA were street cars!!!

 

Uhhhh, not in the Southeast...

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evojim
I am not prepared to hack up my street car to be competitive in TT3. THATS WHY I RAN TTA to start with.......

 

If I wanted to run a HP/Weight class that has no limits beyond HP/LBS and OEM aero/non OEM aero I would have run TTS+ in the first place.

Why can't you run TTB?

Mustang GT is TTB stock,

 

I can add A6's +13

a 275 tire (cheapest to buy) +1

FRPP Dampers (tokico twin tubes) +3

Factory option Brembo calipers +2.

 

Thats all you can do. So thats a BONE STOCK 2011-2012 Mustang GT (2013's are TTB* even though they are the same car) with shocks and slicks........

 

Car wont be competitive at a national level without more than that

 

Plus I have all this money wrapped up in parts that make a Mustang a truely track credible car that I cant get nearly what I paid for them, so I would rather keep them keep the car as a well sorted out package and a find a home for it, since NASA took away the home it was built for.

 

Well, let's see, I drive an Evo IX, which is TTB with the 5 point turbo penalty. Bone stock drivetrain the car is going to hit the track around 13.8-1 power to weight (245 awhp, 3400 with driver). And I have a grand total of 14 points to play with. Try to make that TTB competitive.

 

No I realized not long after getting into this I could either a) Accept the fact that my Evo would have to be turned into a pure gutted tin can to ever come close to the pointy end of TT in the area, or b) get something cheaper that fits more favorably into the TT points system.

 

I opted for A because I love the car and I really want to see what I can do with it. I still have a long way to go, but whining because people like Mark and Scott have already invested 2-3 years of development and testing to get where they are at with their vettes is pointless for me.

 

You decided to track a newer V8 Mustang GT. A car that has a large performance potential. Guess what, it aint cheap and most of the people in the class(es) it is eligible for are hardcore and their cars are too. The Vorshlag SN197 Stang won the Nola TT3 last weekend, and that is not a street car.

 

So your choice is the same as any of us with similar vehicles. I quit driving my car on the street a long time ago and made peace with it.

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Varkwso
hell a vast majority of the C5 Z06's in TTA were street cars!!!

Couldn't be farther from the truth. I knew of only one in the Southeast (now retired) and we had a crap ton of C5's in TTA at one point. All the rest were fully gutted and well prepped. I can't speak for the rest of the country, but I know that TTA was competitive nationwide so I seriously doubt there were many street C5's running around.

 

At least you have an option for a points based class so pick your poison.

No Corvette built in the last 16 years has that luxury.

 

2009 was last year a street C5 was a consistent winner in SE in TTA.

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clydesdale
Well, let's see, I drive an Evo IX, which is TTB with the 5 point turbo penalty. Bone stock drivetrain the car is going to hit the track around 13.8-1 power to weight (245 awhp, 3400 with driver). And I have a grand total of 14 points to play with. Try to make that TTB competitive.

 

No I realized not long after getting into this I could either a) Accept the fact that my Evo would have to be turned into a pure gutted tin can to ever come close to the pointy end of TT in the area, or b) get something cheaper that fits more favorably into the TT points system.

...

 

Please excuse the TTB digression but I disasgree with you evojim. If you choose not to tune or cut weight that's one thing but you can't call the Evo uncompetitive in TTB. With a competition weight of 3260 and minor mods making over 300hp on a stock engine and turbo it has been plenty competitive-- at least up until I saw what the S2000 gets for a TTB reclass but that's another topic. I think Nate's car could have taken the TTB national championship at Mid-Ohio had he not already moved to TTA that year. The only cars better than the Evo for the class would be the S2000 (Kohler's) or maybe the C5 vette (Lesnak's). The S2000 because it's 650 lbs lighter and the C5 because it is already very close to the hp/weight limit with just an intake.

 

Just the single fact that the comp weight is the factory curb weight for all car classifications makes the idea of an unmodified street car (or showroom car) being competitive unthinkable in just about any class. At a bare minimum there are two requirements, meet the comp weight and run as large a Hoosier as you can fit. If you have a turbo then it needs a tune since you've already paid the 5 points for it.

 

Stinger1987, I think you have a better point that the Mustang GT may not be competitive in TTB, but if you're spending money and points to make the car a "credible track car" in TTA how is that different in substance than making the car a credible track car in TT3? Those modifications should be equally valuable shouldn't they? If they're not then there's no reason to think that they would have been especially effective in TTA either regardless of what they cost. Just run your TTA car in TT3 and see where you come up short. Maybe it's a lot, maybe not. Otherwise it sounds a bit like sour grapes.

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ILIKETODRIVE
At a bare minimum there are two requirements, meet the comp weight and run as large a Hoosier as you can fit.

Yup. If you're not going omgoutofcontrolwithmycarbuild or you're not doing a reclass, then do these two things and see how many points you have left (if any).

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evojim

Please excuse the TTB digression but I disasgree with you evojim. If you choose not to tune or cut weight that's one thing but you can't call the Evo uncompetitive in TTB. With a competition weight of 3260 and minor mods making over 300hp on a stock engine and turbo it has been plenty competitive-- at least up until I saw what the S2000 gets for a TTB reclass but that's another topic. I think Nate's car could have taken the TTB national championship at Mid-Ohio had he not already moved to TTA that year. The only cars better than the Evo for the class would be the S2000 (Kohler's) or maybe the C5 vette (Lesnak's). The S2000 because it's 650 lbs lighter and the C5 because it is already very close to the hp/weight limit with just an intake.

 

Just the single fact that the comp weight is the factory curb weight for all car classifications makes the idea of an unmodified street car (or showroom car) being competitive unthinkable in just about any class. At a bare minimum there are two requirements, meet the comp weight and run as large a Hoosier as you can fit. If you have a turbo then it needs a tune since you've already paid the 5 points for it.

 

Stinger1987, I think you have a better point that the Mustang GT may not be competitive in TTB, but if you're spending money and points to make the car a "credible track car" in TTA how is that different in substance than making the car a credible track car in TT3? Those modifications should be equally valuable shouldn't they? If they're not then there's no reason to think that they would have been especially effective in TTA either regardless of what they cost. Just run your TTA car in TT3 and see where you come up short. Maybe it's a lot, maybe not. Otherwise it sounds a bit like sour grapes.

 

I don't diagree with any of this. Yes an Evo can be TTB competitive, but with the caveat I highlighted in Bold above. Stinger is unhappy with not being able to keep a full interior-street friendly car competitive. I was mearly pointing out, the same is true with an Evo trying to meet those same guidelines. Making an Evo IX hit the track at 3260 with driver and fuel means pretty heavy weight reduction. That means a lot of not so cheap lightweight parts and/or serious gutting. The gutting is obviously the cheaper.

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clydesdale

Two of the more uncomfortable moments emotionally for me as car owner and track enthusiast were :

 

1) the first time I drove the car after switching to solid urethane motor and trans mounts

 

and

 

2) the first time I sat in the car completely gutted with a roll cage.

 

Those are the moments where I thought to myself-- "What the f--- have I done". I can empathize with both of you. Ironically you could offset the extra interior weight with extra power in TT3. In essence you could run a more capable version of a street car even though it's not as competitive in the class. I'd be interested to know what the Mustang GT TTB reclass would be with the higher weight if anyone happens to have one.

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ILIKETODRIVE
2) the first time I sat in the car completely gutted with a roll cage.

 

I thought to myself-- "What the f--- have I done".

That's funny. The first time I sat in my current Integra that is completely gutted/full custom 6-point cage/etc I thought to myself, "Finally I get to drive my dream project and feel completely comfortable and safe!"

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modernbeat
...The Vorshlag SN197 Stang won the Nola TT3 last weekend, and that is not a street car...

 

Actually, it IS a street car. Though a swap from the Motons back to ASTs would make it even more streetable. Still has a full interior, HVAC, premium sound system, etc...

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Fair
You decided to track a newer V8 Mustang GT. A car that has a large performance potential. Guess what, it aint cheap and most of the people in the class(es) it is eligible for are hardcore and their cars are too. The Vorshlag SN197 Stang won the Nola TT3 last weekend, and that is not a street car.

Why does everyone think our Mustang is not a street car? Just because we take it to race tracks inside an enclosed trailer doesn't make it a race-only car. Far from it.

 

image-M.jpg

 

Our "TT3" 2011 Mustang GT still has the stock: chassis, glass, bodywork (we have not even rolled the fenders), full interior (with Sparco seats/siders), bone stock engine (with headers + cold air), emissions legal everything (cats w/ quiet exhaust to the rear bumper), cooling system, clutch/pp/transmission, radio, touch screen NAV system, driveshaft, brakes (except for pads and ducting, up front), crossmember, etc. It is registered, insured, emissions legal and daily driven by my wife; after most races we swap tires/wheels and the trunk (de-wing it) in about 45 minutes.

 

DSC_3359-M.jpg

 

Whenever we get a couple months off of racing (end of the season) we spend an extra couple of hours and swap in the factory front power leather seats, pull the graphics (refreshed about once a season), swap in softer springs, and then it really looks and rides like stock (above).

 

_DSC4496-M.jpg

 

About the raciest part on the whole car that we just added before the TWS event is the 4-point roll bar that was bolted in. It was like pulling teeth to get her to let us drill holes to mount it. This 63 pounds of tubing only added to the already curb-crushing 3770 pound minimum weight we have to run (it weighed 3820 pounds last time we checked, with me in it). We had too many AI racers coming by and telling us to either slow down or get some real safety gear in this thing... and I appreciated their candor, as their arguments helped me convince her.

 

DSC_7919-M.jpg

 

When or if she lets us "cut or gut" the car, it can finally become more of a proper TT3 race car. This Mustang desperately needs real aero, wider tires, a better power tune (with a flatter horsepower curve), and a serious diet/ballast re-balance. I think it is a fluke that it has set 4 consecutive TT3 track records this year in Texas. Come June, with the twistiness of Hallett on the schedule, I think I'm in trouble.

 

For TT3 I'd much rather be in a proper sports car (C5 Coupe or C5 Z06 is still the ringer for TT3, in my book) with independent suspension at all 4 corners and a slippery body shape than in a front heavy, 3800+ pound, unaerodymanic brick with a stick axle and McStrut suspension. Or maybe in an AWD boost buggy, where you can "dial-a-boost" your way into TT1, TT2 or TT3... we just have to trust the word of the driver on which map he is running. Hehehe.... Kevin @ Evo-D knows this old, running joke.

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evojim

Those are the moments where I thought to myself-- "What the f--- have I done". I can empathize with both of you. Ironically you could offset the extra interior weight with extra power in TT3. In essence you could run a more capable version of a street car even though it's not as competitive in the class. I'd be interested to know what the Mustang GT TTB reclass would be with the higher weight if anyone happens to have one.

 

You could try that in TT3, but I am finding that cutting weight is necessary for handling and keeping the A6's from wearing out uber fast. It's possible, but with drawbacks.

 

After getting over the shock of that initial 'damn the torpedos' moment when you decide you are through trying to keep the car as something you drive regularly, it is sort of liberating. Now you can just cut loose with mods without any concern for comfort, NVH, etc.

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evojim
You decided to track a newer V8 Mustang GT. A car that has a large performance potential. Guess what, it aint cheap and most of the people in the class(es) it is eligible for are hardcore and their cars are too. The Vorshlag SN197 Stang won the Nola TT3 last weekend, and that is not a street car.

Why does everyone think our Mustang is not a street car? Just because we take it to race tracks inside an enclosed trailer doesn't make it a race-only car. Far from it.

 

Our "TT3" 2011 Mustang GT still has the stock: chassis, glass, bodywork (we have not even rolled the fenders), full interior (with Sparco seats/siders), bone stock engine (with headers + cold air), emissions legal everything (cats w/ quiet exhaust to the rear bumper), cooling system, clutch/pp/transmission, radio, touch screen NAV system, driveshaft, brakes (except for pads and ducting, up front), crossmember, etc. It is registered, insured, emissions legal and daily driven by my wife; after most races we swap tires/wheels and the trunk (de-wing it) in about 45 minutes.

 

Whenever we get a couple months off of racing (end of the season) we spend an extra couple of hours and swap in the factory front power leather seats, pull the graphics (refreshed about once a season), swap in softer springs, and then it really looks and rides like stock (above).

 

About the raciest part on the whole car that we just added before the TWS event is the 4-point roll bar that was bolted in. It was like pulling teeth to get her to let us drill holes to mount it. This 63 pounds of tubing only added to the already curb-crushing 3770 pound minimum weight we have to run (it weighed 3820 pounds last time we checked, with me in it). We had too many AI racers coming by and telling us to either slow down or get some real safety gear in this thing... and I appreciated their candor, as their arguments helped me convince her.

 

When or if she lets us "cut or gut" the car, it can finally become more of a proper TT3 race car. This Mustang desperately needs real aero, wider tires, a better power tune (with a flatter horsepower curve), and a serious diet/ballast re-balance. I think it is a fluke that it has set 4 consecutive TT3 track records this year in Texas. Come June, with the twistiness of Hallett on the schedule, I think I'm in trouble.

 

For TT3 I'd much rather be in a proper sports car (C5 Coupe or C5 Z06 is still the ringer for TT3, in my book) with independent suspension at all 4 corners and a slippery body shape than in a front heavy, 3800+ pound, unaerodymanic brick with a stick axle and McStrut suspension. Or maybe in an AWD boost buggy, where you can "dial-a-boost" your way into TT1, TT2 or TT3... we just have to trust the word of the driver on which map he is running. Hehehe.... Kevin @ Evo-D knows this old, running joke.

 

Well I admit I am a bit speechless. I still think stinger was talking about keeping the car something you drive to and from events. And you do go through a changeover and then trailer to events. But I am doubly impressed with the times you put down at NOLA now. Especially at that weight. It's got to be tough on rubber running that pace at that weight. Given your noticeable livery, I would assume however that the suspension is well dialed in.

 

Dial a boost, You are talking to the guy in the Evo who couldn't pull away from the S2k's at NOLA. Believe me, I would have loved dial-a-anything with my ECU flashing knock sensor madness and the car falling flat on it's face.

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trigger

hey terry, I got a C5Z i'll trade ya. even swap. it came in second at NOLA.

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Stinger1987

I was not talking about driving the car too and from the events. I trailer because you never know if you will break something or (god forbid, have an accident).

 

A great example of one of the rule changes that makes me dislike TT3 is in TTA there was $ limit to how much your shocks could cost without taking additional points. Now there is nothing.

 

So before I had to deal with Corvette's with street style dampers and now there are vettes in my clas with $$$$$$ penske shocks.

My only saving grace is that just because someone can afford those level of dampers doesnt mean they have the knowledge to dial them in correctly or well enough to truely extract what they are capable of.

 

Plus my car won TT3 on sunday at the Great Lakes season opener (4th place on saturday) and I havent changed really anything since last year. I am worried its wehen the cars built specifically for TT3 show up that the older TTA style cars will truly have no shot at all..

 

 

In the photo below I am excited to run against the car in the top photo (a TTA national championship winning Z06)

 

I am not excited to run my car against the car in the bottom (TTS national chamionship winning corvette which is excatly the kind of car dropping down to TT3, this is an old World Challenege car), if I wanted to run this kind of cars in the first place I would have built a TTS+ car.....

 

 

tta_tt3_vette_side_by_side.JPG

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mrc24x

Stinger,

 

I paid $50.00 each for my shocks and Ken hasn't had his car running for 2 years....Don't worry about the other people and just drive it as hard as you can.

 

It all works out in the end. Join us at Putnam and I'll buy you a case (of Diet Mt. Dew) for your troubles.

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Stinger1987
Stinger,

 

I paid $50.00 each for my shocks and Ken hasn't had his car running for 2 years....Don't worry about the other people and just drive it as hard as you can.

 

It all works out in the end. Join us at Putnam and I'll buy you a case (of Diet Mt. Dew) for your troubles.

 

Matt you are such a sweet heart. You beat me with a C4 on $50 shocks on saturday and thats on me. I was HAPPY TO LOSE TO YOU, your car is a true PTA/TTA car and you out drove me!

 

With the wedding in June Putnam is a no go

 

 

p.s. you know Ken bought Brownlow's car to run in TT3 right?

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mrc24x

Yes, I know. But it's yellow....

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Vettedoctor

I am not excited to run my car against the car in the bottom (TTS national chamionship winning corvette which is excatly the kind of car dropping down to TT3, this is an old World Challenege car), if I wanted to run this kind of cars in the first place I would have built a TTS+ car.....

 

Actually Ken never won a TTS National Championship - ST2 yes, TTS no. If you do show up to a cross-over event this year you will more than likely run into this car.

 

20120916_142619.jpg

 

McKamey is running under current TTS lap records in TT3 trim, he will be at Putnam and if the weather is ok I'm guessing he will be running under a 1.14 in TT3 trim. (the car is for sale btw for anyone interested in running at the pointy end of TT3 if you don't mind running a Vette

However the majority of cars running TT3 in the MW region (and so far it appears GL as well) are old TTA cars so for the most part you will find someone to race with. Just because Jim or Ken show up with a fully prepped TT3 car doesn't mean you can't have fun. We all know it's going to happen so either start modding, change classes or just accept it.

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clydesdale

Did Rory sell his vette?

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