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TT easier on car than HPDE?


RandyG67

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I read on the forum where a typical TT session is really made up of only a couple or so "money" laps, whereas a typical HPDE session is usually an all out assault for the whole 20 minutes. Further, in theory, a TT driver is smoother and easier on the car than your average HPDE hot shoe, no? So does this add up to improved durability in some way?

 

More specifically, is this true with regard to the survivability of a boosted track car? I will start my TT build in a few months and I want to at least explore going boosted before deciding it may not be worth it. One of the things that may land in it's favor is your feedback as to whether TT'ing is actually easier on cars.

 

Thank You,

Randy

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Randy,

 

How hard a driver is on a car doesn't depend on which group they're running it - it depends on the driver! Time Trials is competition though, so drivers typically push their cars to try and achieve their best lap time. Some drivers might only stay out for 3 or 4 laps, some stay for the entire session. Nobody's making you stay out for the entire duration of an HPDE session either.

 

Have you been running the HPDE program for a while/or have significant track experience? If not, I would strongly discourage adding more power until you're getting everything out of your N/A setup. If you do have experience, you'll still want to consider if adding boost will be beneficial for you within the TT ruleset. It may not necessarily be the optimum way to go, depending on vehicle and class, of course.

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If you intend to do TT, do absolutely nothing to your car until you completely understand the classing rules and can make informed decisions about which modifications are valuable. Aftermarket FI on a car is probably not a good idea unless you intend to run the TT1-3 classes.

 

Personally, I don't think there's much difference in wear and tear between TT and HPDE. You'll tend to use newer tires in TT, but for less laps. You'll tend to run slower lap times in HPDE but more of them.

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I'd say TT is easier on a car than w2w which can translate to longer HPDE sessions somewhat (especially for turbo cars) but then again, I like reliability so we stick with NA for both venues.

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I read on the forum where a typical TT session is really made up of only a couple or so "money" laps, whereas a typical HPDE session is usually an all out assault for the whole 20 minutes. Further, in theory, a TT driver is smoother and easier on the car than your average HPDE hot shoe, no? So does this add up to improved durability in some way?

 

More specifically, is this true with regard to the survivability of a boosted track car? I will start my TT build in a few months and I want to at least explore going boosted before deciding it may not be worth it. One of the things that may land in it's favor is your feedback as to whether TT'ing is actually easier on cars.

 

Thank You,

Randy

 

IMO wear YES (risk is another thing)

 

There is a range. I would say for the faster groups ( TT1, TT2, TT3, maybe some B, C, D cars pending track) and more dedicated drivers yes. There are a variety of types at TT though. To win TT takes a different approach. But the reason they are easier on the car has more factors.

 

#1 Faster groups catch traffic after 2 laps sometimes, no more than 3-5 usually, useful session is over. TT sessions are shorter anyways.

 

#2 It's almost impossible to wear the car in 3-5 laps as you would in 25-30 minutes non stop. Sustained heat has a huge effect on tires, brake pads, rotors, engine, transmission, you name it. Even driving 7/10's for 30 minutes is much harder than 10/10ths for 5 minutes.

 

#3 With #2 in mind, you can set a lap record, and win tires on both days with as little as 2-4 hot laps, I have done as few as 7 and couldn't have been happier, goal accomplished. Most TT guys are not there to see how many laps they can get in, they are there to see how fast of a lap they can turn. Doesn't take all day to figure that out.

 

#4 Many dedicated TT guys would still drive the car pretty hard in DE, they aren't lounging. Not only that advanced DE folk push the gas and brake just as hard.

 

#5 If you are there with a goal of winning tires or setting a lap record, you keep the car fresh with few laps. Your stretch tires out by being able to reuse them. TT sessions are more like Auto-X sessions on tires, you can get a whole lot more than you will with full DE sessions on them. You will see guys skip afternoon sessions regularly. zero laps is far less wear than a full DE session. Look at how many less cars are in TT groups after about 1-2 PM especially when it's hot.

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all that he said is accurate .... but there are some of us that run TT for the open track time

 

my car with it's 110hp, when thrown out there in mixed DE sessions with 50 or so cars ... I end up driving the entire session in my mirrors ... switched to TT and while I go out last (usually) most of my track time (and I use all 15 min) is open track .... while I still keep an eye on my mirrors, (at CMP at least), there are very few times that the faster cars are catching me ... they get their 3- 4 hot laps, then cool down and pull in ... I'm still out there beating on my poor little car as hard as I can go LOL

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I agree with the statements above, but will add a bit more about the harshness of Time Trials. The podium TT cars regularly:

 

- hold the engine against the rev limiter multiple times per lap, multiple times per day

- shift at redline, every shift

- use ALL of the track to include rumble strips that eat your car

- get very little cool down after a hard session because we also generally instruct and have to run to a students car

- have wheels swapped multiple times per day, every day

- run the stickiest tires possible at the highest g loads possible which is hard on bearings and brakes

- do drag strip gear changes coming out of turns

- run 6" off the bumper in front of you taking every rock and tire turd on the nose

 

 

-Kevin

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- run 6" off the bumper in front of you taking every rock and tire turd on the nose

I learned that spending a significant amount of track time behind another car means your car is ingesting mostly hot air, which will make YOUR car run a lot hotter... in any case, don't neglect to think about improving your car's cooling system capacity (both coolant and oil) if you're going FI.

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- run 6" off the bumper in front of you taking every rock and tire turd on the nose

-Kevin

Agreed with your assessment of additional stress in TT, however, prolonged drafting is not permitted!

 

From Section 8 of the TT Rules:

Drivers are cautioned not to deliberately draft with another vehicle, except immediately prior to making a pass. Prolonged drafting or “team” drafting may result in penalties for both drivers.

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- run 6" off the bumper in front of you taking every rock and tire turd on the nose

-Kevin

Agreed with your assessment of additional stress in TT, however, prolonged drafting is not permitted!

 

From Section 8 of the TT Rules:

Drivers are cautioned not to deliberately draft with another vehicle, except immediately prior to making a pass. Prolonged drafting or “team” drafting may result in penalties for both drivers.

 

I never proclaimed "prolonged drafting". If you are running a hot lap and come up on someone in an area you cannot pass, and you trust the person in front of you, you stay in the gas and up on their bumper so as to pass them as soon as it is clear or they move. Same goes if you are faster in a corner and you know they are faster in a straight. You run up their rear and stay in the gas knowing they will leave you when leaving the corner.

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I agree with the statements above, but will add a bit more about the harshness of Time Trials. The podium TT cars regularly:

 

- hold the engine against the rev limiter multiple times per lap, multiple times per day

- shift at redline, every shift

- use ALL of the track to include rumble strips that eat your car

- get very little cool down after a hard session because we also generally instruct and have to run to a students car

- have wheels swapped multiple times per day, every day

- run the stickiest tires possible at the highest g loads possible which is hard on bearings and brakes

- do drag strip gear changes coming out of turns

- run 6" off the bumper in front of you taking every rock and tire turd on the nose

 

 

-Kevin

 

drag strip gear changes. good one.

 

And yes, stickier tires, most definitely. Paint chips too. I don't bounce the rev limiter if at all possible, but shifting at redline for sure.

 

As for body wear, I'd call that a plus (a workout). And if you get your laps in, get off the track quick and have your student pick you up at your paddock spot, makes life much easier.

 

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TT is harder on car if you are competing.

 

DE can give it a rest when you want to.

 

We grid by best time so you are often .001 second faster or slower then the cars around you. Stay thirsty and Drive hard.

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Randy,

Have you been running the HPDE program for a while/or have significant track experience? If not, I would strongly discourage adding more power until you're getting everything out of your N/A setup. If you do have experience, you'll still want to consider if adding boost will be beneficial for you within the TT ruleset.

Everything that speedengineer says is correct. I would further suggest that until you are a competent regular in HPDE 4 that you not even think about jumping into TT, even if you somehow convinced the regional director to let you. There are expectations taken for granted about your knowledge and skill level. You have to be clear on that.

 

The biggest, most common newb mistake is to attempt to substitute horsepower for talent. It often results in damaged vehicles.

 

You did not say that you have run any HPDE within NASA. If that is the case, you should stay out of Time Trials. If you are not familiar with how things work in Time Trials and your region, you are either not going to be allowed in or find yourself booted out in no time flat.

 

High horsepower cars are fun to watch and drive for straight line acceleration. Lost on most new drivers is the fact that most track have ten to fifteen turns and two or three straights. Learn to drive the turns and become a good driver first. Turbo not needed for this.

 

TT is competition, HPDE is not. There are things to learn in both. Most of my buddies have seen more damage and wear to their cars in TT than in HPDE. Most of them are top three finishers on a regular basis. There are a lot of bookends out there that don't seem to give a rip about their times or standings. I don't get those people. You can join them if you want. But it is more fun to be good, quick and win on occasion.

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All very (very!) thoughtful points and I'm taking all this to heart. All of this is/will be brand new to me as I have all of one weekend on track in a rented TWS Miata about 7 years ago with another HPDE organization. Though I'm eager to get started, I'm not in a hurry to the extent that I'm trying to run before I've learned how to walk. With respect to my original question of the difficulty of tracking a turbo car (aftermarket turbo, at that) I could make a case for -

 

a) letting the car and driver grow together in the realm of additional horsepower commensurate with increased driver skill

b) learning to drive from Day 1 with the "finished product" (ie, if I plan to end up with a turbo car, may as well learn with it from the beginning)

 

It was this decision that I didn't know how to evaluate. Granted, I know I have to work up through the HPDE ranks and am starting to see where this might be best accomplished in a relatively untouched car. Listening to you all here on the forums, this strategy seems to produce better driving skills. Hell, looks like it'll save a buck or two for awhile to boot!

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c) Learn to drive and then you can enjoy a variety of cars, whether high or low horsepower

 

People usually gravitate towards vehicles that they have an affinity for. There are a lot of different ways to get the the same lap times, and that's part of the fun and challenge.

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