troyguitar Posted August 2, 2013 Share Posted August 2, 2013 I'm looking at swapping out my .778 6th gear with a .528 for the sole reason of increased highway fuel efficiency. If anything this will slow the car down at any track requiring 6th gear (5th gear tops out around 140) - there is literally NO possible way this will make my lap times better. Do I really need to take points for altered gear ratios if I'm making them worse? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drivinhardz06 Posted August 2, 2013 Share Posted August 2, 2013 points Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILIKETODRIVE Posted August 2, 2013 Share Posted August 2, 2013 points x2, unfortunately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted August 2, 2013 Share Posted August 2, 2013 you can try and ask for an official waiver, but... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troyguitar Posted August 2, 2013 Author Share Posted August 2, 2013 Cool. Look forward to a new last place finisher in TT3 at every single event in the Northeast next year. Adjusted wt/pwr ratio 15 but points will put me in TT3 haha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboShortBus Posted August 3, 2013 Share Posted August 3, 2013 Points x3. Maybe the modification that you mentioned would benefit another car. We don't quantify modifications; we only determine whether or not they exist. If we put a performance value on every single permitted modification, then the rules would be as thick as a phone book, and nobody wants that. "If you feel that the modification isn't worth the points, then don't make the modification." Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedengineer Posted August 3, 2013 Share Posted August 3, 2013 So, uhm. If it costs you say $400 to do the gear swap, and that swap bumps your highway fuel economy from 30mpg to 33mpg, then at $3.75/gallon, it will take you 35,000 Highway miles to make back that $400. Is it worth it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troyguitar Posted August 4, 2013 Author Share Posted August 4, 2013 So, uhm. If it costs you say $400 to do the gear swap, and that swap bumps your highway fuel economy from 30mpg to 33mpg, then at $3.75/gallon, it will take you 35,000 Highway miles to make back that $400. Is it worth it? I drive 35k miles a year and don't want to own, store, and insure 3+ different vehicles (commuting, towing, track, etc.). The S4 is an ongoing experiment at doing everything with a single vehicle. Gear swap will save on the order of $100 a month in gas and pay for itself quickly! The car just isn't going to win any TT championships and that's OK. Perhaps it will at least surprise a few people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWeber Posted August 4, 2013 Share Posted August 4, 2013 So what is your back-up plan for a daily when the Audi breaks at the track? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troyguitar Posted August 4, 2013 Author Share Posted August 4, 2013 So what is your back-up plan for a daily when the Audi breaks at the track? Depending on what breaks, buy or rent something else while I fix it... the same thing people do when things break anywhere else. It's not a big deal, Audi's break all of the time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboShortBus Posted August 4, 2013 Share Posted August 4, 2013 Be sure to remember the old adage: "If you can't afford to push your car off a cliff, then don't take it on track." Some things that happen on track can't be fixed in a couple of days or even weeks. My prediction is that this will play out in one of two ways: #1: All of this gear swappage for highway MPG will have been for naught in a year or two when you buy a different daily beater and gut/cage the Audi for full track use. or #2: All of this worrying about TT points for gear swaps will have been for naught in a year or two when you buy a used Spec Miata and rent a pickup and trailer from U-Haul to preserve the Audi for daily beater use. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWeber Posted August 4, 2013 Share Posted August 4, 2013 It's not a big deal, Audi's break all of the time ^ Haha... ....which is why we no longer own an Audi after having 4 of them in the past.. lol ...but don't get me wrong, they are wonderful cars and we still have a lot to love for them too. (<-- just can't afford 1 right now) Everyone doing this long enough eventually has something break at the track, we just didn't like how frequently we had issues with just our street Audi and didn't want to use it in a track setting because of it. Seems like you are increasing your potential downtime with it by tracking it is all. ...and there is a LOT to be said about the comment of 'don't bring it if you can't afford to wreck it'. I found myself driving like complete ass this year in my former spec miata (had too much money into it being unemployed since being laid off in January) NOW we have a car that is literally half the Spec Miata investment and I already know I'll be driving it differently because the concept of 'walking away' from it should something happen, will be much easier to take and I can stop driving like a scardy-cat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troyguitar Posted August 4, 2013 Author Share Posted August 4, 2013 Yeah you won't ever hear me argue that it's a financially intelligent move, but I'm not running it due to financial restrictions. If I wanted to build a TT3 Corvette or whatever, I would do that. If it gets wrecked I won't be living on the street. It's a long term experiment in building "the ultimate do-everything car" starting with the best all-around vehicle you can buy: A luxury AWD wagon with some power and a proper manual transmission. I personally don't see the point in putting time and money into a race car to be driven 10-20 days a year, plus a truck and trailer that will also be driven 10-20 days a year, then driving some other boring-mobile 335 days a year. Maybe if I lived 3 miles from work in a place with no winter and could run my track car 100 days a year it would be different. In any case, I was just wondering if TT followed the letter of the rules or the spirit of the rules - if it's the letter then so be it, I'll have my work cut out for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWeber Posted August 4, 2013 Share Posted August 4, 2013 ^ the 'letter' of the rules keeps it simple and fair for everyone. (very clear cut with no deviations) If you look around, there has been plenty of discussions about optional side skirts or factory optional wings people insist are not helping them go faster but the rules are the rules (if they don't help and you don't want the points, remove them and you are done). At the same time, if you have a car that came stock with a factory wing, removing it will cost you points as well (just how it works). Heck, we changed our former G20 decklid to have it NOT have a factory spoiler since it was an 'option' and not something we wanted to take points for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboShortBus Posted August 4, 2013 Share Posted August 4, 2013 In any case, I was just wondering if TT followed the letter of the rules or the spirit of the rules Now THAT is funny, right there! Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troyguitar Posted August 4, 2013 Author Share Posted August 4, 2013 In any case, I was just wondering if TT followed the letter of the rules or the spirit of the rules Now THAT is funny, right there! Mark How is it funny to wonder if a mod that can be objectively shown to have zero or negative impact on lap times can be ignored for classification purposes? Are the points NOT supposed to be based on things that change lap times? Is this NOT supposed to be a friendly amateur competition? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWeber Posted August 4, 2013 Share Posted August 4, 2013 ^ It is a competition with a clear-cut rule set. Things are at steak like contingency winnings (1st place tires, hawk bux, etc.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboShortBus Posted August 5, 2013 Share Posted August 5, 2013 How is it funny to wonder if a mod that can be objectively shown to have zero or negative impact on lap times can be ignored for classification purposes?Yes, it is funny to me that one wonders about TT following the spirit or the letter of the rules (spending an evening reading through the various posts in this forum should clear that up; dedicate a few hours to the 47-ish page Honda S2000 Mugen hardtop discussion ), as this is my 5th season of regionally enforcing TT modifications sans exceptions, and I have been at the NASA Championships for the last 2 years inspecting PT and TT cars to ensure that they follow the letter of the rules. I have seen hearts break and tempers flare as drivers realize that their regional "spirit of the rules" exceptions or "But, I thought..." unofficial interpretations should never have been applied (as lap times are disallowed, cars are bumped up a class or two, and/or cars are DQed off the podium). Are the points NOT supposed to be based on things that change lap times?Again: Points x3. Maybe the modification that you mentioned would benefit another car. We don't quantify modifications; we only determine whether or not they exist. If we put a performance value on every single permitted modification, then the rules would be as thick as a phone book, and nobody wants that. "If you feel that the modification isn't worth the points, then don't make the modification." Mark Is this NOT supposed to be a friendly amateur competition?Sure, it's friendly amateur competition...with as much as $1500 in free tires up for grabs every weekend. As such, it is important that all drivers follow the letter of the rules. Note that the definitions of "friendly" and "amateur" are occasionally stretched. Your "the ultimate do-everything car" plan is noble, but realize that such a plan will have compromises on all sides (one of which is +3 per D3 if you follow through on idea to gain highway MPG). On one end of the spectrum is "ultimate daily driver," and on the other end is "ultimate track car," with your final result somewhere in the middle. If you aren't going after all-out competition, then playing in the middle of that spectrum will still be fun. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troyguitar Posted August 5, 2013 Author Share Posted August 5, 2013 So am I also to assume that my stupid aftermarket front lip thing is going to take 8 points if I put it on? It's an air dam, splitter, and canards! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted August 5, 2013 Share Posted August 5, 2013 (edited) Until I got my fiance's RX8 R3 listed as a separate car from the regular Series 2 RX8, it was technically illegal for any points-based TT class due to the sideskirts that come as part of the R3 aero package. Thankfully now it's listed, and also the sideskirt rule got tweaked, but... Hope you focus on the having fun and going fast part, the srsbzns "that's points" stuff will eat at you otherwise Having an arbirtrary but firm "line in the sand" really is best though. It's not Official XYZ's interpretation that charges you points but not your buddy with the same part, it's exactly the same for everyone. And like I said, you can try and email Greg and see if you can get a points waiver on your 6th gear change, especially since it's not a gear you would use on track. Worth a shot at any rate. Now that lip, I'd honestly just skip it - negligible track benifit with a huge points hit, and definitely something I doubt you'd be able to get a waiver for. If you're in the hp/weight classes though, it doesn't matter except for TT3. Edited August 5, 2013 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drivinhardz06 Posted August 5, 2013 Share Posted August 5, 2013 Is this NOT supposed to be a friendly amateur competition? most friendly competition in the world. you'll thrash on your competitors car, loan him parts, give him advice, and when the helmet goes on, try to kick his butt back to the stone age like he was your worst enemy. Then laugh and joke about it when it's done Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted August 5, 2013 Share Posted August 5, 2013 spotted this in an article that I was reading - felt it was applicable here The eminent Bart Giamatti—commissioner of Major League Baseball in 1989 before his untimely death—often spoke of why the rules of the game, indeed of all games, are inviolable. Games, he'd say, are defined by rules without which there can be no games. When rules are ignored, the event becomes entertainment and ceases to be a true athletic contest. The result is then professional wrestling or theater—but not sport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra4B Posted August 5, 2013 Share Posted August 5, 2013 Is this NOT supposed to be a friendly amateur competition? most friendly competition in the world. you'll thrash on your competitors car, loan him parts, give him advice, and when the helmet goes on, try to kick his butt back to the stone age like he was your worst enemy. Then laugh and joke about it when it's done When free Hoosiers are at stake all bets are off Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rzoops Posted August 5, 2013 Share Posted August 5, 2013 Every single mod on every single car cannot be evaluated on an individual basis. There is certainly some room for interpretation here and there, but I would hope that anyone can see why it isn't practical to allow rules to be broken for whatever the underlying personal reasons are. It's a slippery slope and large, national organizations like these have to rely upon rules for consistency and fairness. No one is excluded for running TT because of the mods discussed in this thread. It just means that someone may have to run in a "faster" class than the car is potentially competitive for. To be blunt, that isn't the fault of the rules makers or your fellow competitors. Most people work very hard and will go out of their way to ensure legality, and I often see others helping fellow competitors get to the point where their car is completely legal. That, IMO, is a good implementation of the "spirit of the rules". Blatant rejection of the rules doesn't align so well with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troyguitar Posted August 5, 2013 Author Share Posted August 5, 2013 Riddle me this: What is the difference between having a modified 6th gear that you don't use in TT and having a secondary higher hp engine tune mapping that you don't use in TT? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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