Cobra4B Posted August 5, 2013 Share Posted August 5, 2013 I'm pretty sure you're not allowed to have easily swappable tunes either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troyguitar Posted August 5, 2013 Author Share Posted August 5, 2013 Vehicles that have more than one fuel/timing program or “map” in the computer/ECU/PCM must submit their estimated horsepower level for each of those fuel/timing “maps” regardless of which one will be used during competition. As well, the method used to switch between these “maps” must be clearly written on the TT Car Classification Form. From the start of competition through the end of post competition inspection, vehicles may not have any adjustments or modifications made to systems that could alter chassis dynamometer readings by changing horsepower levels (without the direct approval of the TT Director.) Any hardware that allows a competitor to wirelessly connect to the ECU at any time during competition or post-competition impound is strictly prohibited, regardless of whether such hardware is external or internal to the ECU You can have as many maps as you want and can choose to use whichever one you want for a given event and are NOT penalized for having other maps available that are NOT used. This is entirely on the honor system and analogous to having extra gear(s) that you can choose to either use or not use - also on the honor system and perhaps easier to police in the case of a 6th gear swap. If the car's speed ever exceeds the speed of hitting the rev limiter in 5th, the driver has used his extra gear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted August 5, 2013 Share Posted August 5, 2013 Did you email Greg with a request to get a waiver for your particular gear swap situation yet? All this thread will do is next to nothing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted August 5, 2013 Share Posted August 5, 2013 Another idea - since "final drive" is a free mod, go with a lower numerical gear there and leave your 1st-6th the same. No points that way, higher fuel mileage, and if you do it right might not hurt track stuff that much (less shifting, put it where it'll top out in 4th or 5th easier, maybe make 2nd a useable / more useable gear etc.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clydesdale Posted August 5, 2013 Share Posted August 5, 2013 You might check to see if update/backdate applies here. If the replacement 6th gear is OEM and from the same model group you don't need to take points for the change. I have an '07 gear set in an '05 car and model group is '04-'07. The gear ratio change was apparently immaterial at the time of classing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILIKETODRIVE Posted August 6, 2013 Share Posted August 6, 2013 /\ Likewise with the Integra. The 1.8L non-VTEC is not listed by years, even though it covers 2 generations and a mid-model change (90-93/94-97/98-01). The 90-93 Integra 5th is .742 vs .714 for 94-01. Therefore, with a 5th gear from a 93 (92-93 gears swap into 94-01 gearboxes) along with a 4.9 FD would be a nice combo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troyguitar Posted August 7, 2013 Author Share Posted August 7, 2013 Unfortunately the gear swap is OEM but from some diesel model sold in Europe, not just a different year of the same car. I did look into final drive ratio change too but didn't really find anything worthwhile, lots of work and custom fab including cannibalizing multiple front and rear diffs and no one has done it before with that trans. My comfort/knowledge level for trans work is low so I'm not really up to that kind of experiment on a daily driven car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clydesdale Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 If someone didn't already mention it-- skip putting on the chin spoiler it will cost points, at least as a splitter but also as canards if it has an angled side not parallel to the ground and as an air dam if it has a vertical surface in the front. It is commonly referred to in our area as the points black hole. You made the comment tongue-in-cheek but unfortunately it is was an accurate assessment. I would request a ruling from Greg G. on the 6th gear change and live with whatever justice he dishes out on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 "Everything" cars suck at everything. Take it from someone who poured endless time and money into building one, only to end up with a car I didn't want to drive on the street and a car that couldn't compete anywhere on track. People gave me this same warning very early on and I didn't listen either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troyguitar Posted August 12, 2013 Author Share Posted August 12, 2013 Eh, no offense intended but I think it is more insane to pour a bunch of time and money into a track car, truck, and trailer to use for 6 weekends a year. Maybe if I had a 5 car garage and $100k+/year track budget it would make sense. I'm happy enough with an uphill battle at the track in exchange for something that does something besides take up space 350 days a year. That's why I'm in TT and not W2W. I really only even run TT because I think there are too many cars on the track in HPDE4, many of which I don't trust enough to run near. TT is a small group of mostly the same few guys at every event with no monster Vipers passing you then parking it in the corners, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWeber Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 . I really only even run TT because I think there are too many cars on the track in HPDE4, many of which I don't trust enough to run near. TT is a small group of mostly the same few guys at every event with no monster Vipers passing you then parking it in the corners, etc. okay? If you really only run TT for more 'open' track space and are not concerned about 'being competitive' or potential contingency winnings, then why not just do the mods you want and run in whatever class your car falls into and have fun at the track with your daily driver? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troyguitar Posted August 13, 2013 Author Share Posted August 13, 2013 Obvious answer is obvious. Everyone wants a chance to compete. Otherwise why have classes at all? Fastest time of the day wins TT and that's the end of it. The guy who spends the most money wins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILIKETODRIVE Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 The guy who spends the most money wins. Only in the "faster" classes is that true. In the "slower" classes driver trumps. I'll spank some fools in TTE in any car that's classed well enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeracerx95 Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 "The guy who spends the most money wins." 1983 RX7. 80+ class wins in five different classes, 6 regional championships. Third at NASA Nationals 2010 (PTD). Open trailer pulled by the family Toyota Sienna. Racing budget not large enough to bother keeping track of. Tens of thousands of dollars in tires, brake pads and Mazda contingency won. -chuck koos- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troyguitar Posted August 13, 2013 Author Share Posted August 13, 2013 Oh come on. At least quote the whole line: Otherwise why have classes at all? Fastest time of the day wins TT and that's the end of it. The guy who spends the most money wins. How many of those 80+ wins were you the fastest car on the track, period? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILIKETODRIVE Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 Oh come on. At least quote the whole line: Otherwise why have classes at all? Fastest time of the day wins TT and that's the end of it. The guy who spends the most money wins. How many of those 80+ wins were you the fastest car on the track, period? Fastest time of the day does not win TT period. Fastest time within your class wins your class period. You could qualify 1st and have the fastest race lap and finish last in a race. Apples to Oranges but still another side of the cube. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troyguitar Posted August 13, 2013 Author Share Posted August 13, 2013 Fastest time of the day does not win TT period. Fastest time within your class wins your class period. ...which is why the VERY FIRST line in the quote was: Otherwise why have classes at all? Can I be more clear for you? This became a discussion about spirit of the rules vs letter of the rules. I'm assuming that the spirit of the rules and classing system is to allow more people to be competitive than just the fastest cars. Hence, anything that does not make a car faster really shouldn't impact its classification because that would only make it less able to compete in a given class. Otherwise why have classes at all? Just make TT such that fastest time of the day wins TT and that's the end of it. The guy who spends the most money wins. What other possible point is there to having multiple classes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILIKETODRIVE Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 (edited) Can I be more clear for you? This became a discussion about spirit of the rules vs letter of the rules. I'm assuming that the spirit of the rules and classing system is to allow more people to be competitive than just the fastest cars. Hence, anything that does not make a car faster really shouldn't impact its classification because that would only make it less able to compete in a given class. Otherwise why have classes at all? Just make TT such that fastest time of the day wins TT and that's the end of it. The guy who spends the most money wins. What other possible point is there to having multiple classes? I take it you're not a competitive person. I gather you have never really competed for anything. It's not about just laying down and saying, "Welp, I can't spend as much as Racer X so why bother." It's about finding loopholes. It's about finding a class-specific vehicle to run. It's about finding vehicle-specific modifications that are either free points or low points and benefit your car more than they do another vehicle. It's about improving as a driver and beating that other guy that has the bigger budget but not the talent to put together a class-winning time. It's about competition. Edited August 13, 2013 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundguydave Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 The whole basis of the points-for-mods concept is that if it wouldn't make the car faster, why do it? These are "race cars" after all. If you simply allow any mod that doesn't increase performance for no points, that opens up a whole world of interpretation... "Well, my really big rear wing actually adds drag, so it slows the car down. No points." Grey areas, loopholes, and bending the rules just short of breaking them is how this game is played. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted August 13, 2013 National Staff Share Posted August 13, 2013 If the rules state: 3) Modify number of forward gears in transmission or altered gear ratios +3 and you have altered gear ratios from BTM, then you take +3 points. It is neither the intent or design of the series to have TT Officials attempting to determine what modifications enhance or don't enhance performance for any of the thousands of car models permitted. The rules are written based on the fact that the modifications listed that are assessed points have the potential for performance enhancement (and decreased lap times), not whether or not a competitor knows how to make those assessed points work to decrease lap times. Here's an example on my old vehicle. I spent +3 points for spherical bearings because I had one control arm joint that kept breaking Poly bushings after I had driven the car for many years. I only changed out that one bushing, even though the rules would have permitted me to change out every suspension bushing in the car for sphericals/Heims. It only made the car "faster" because a car with a control arm Poly bushing lying on the track doesn't go very fast. I still took the points. It was my choice not to spend more time/money/resources to change out more bushings and find some speed for these three points. The same goes for your transmission gearing. It is your choice to change one gear for +3 points, regardless of what it does for the car. Once you are taking the +3 points, it is your choice whether to change one or more other gears that make the car perform better on the track. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brkntrxn Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 Having gone through a version of this at Nationals last year, I will support the statement and decisions that modifications should be treated as points because they DO make at least one car in the world faster. Here is the situation: When I had my cage built in my C5Z06, I had NASCAR door bars installed on the passenger side as well. My main thought for doing this was not only right side weight, but also because I regularly take passengers for rides at 140mph through NASCAR T3-4 at Charlotte Motor Speedway. Not to mention everywhere else I go. When my cage builder put the passenger door bars in, he also welded in two support bars down to the sill plate on that side as he did on the driver's side. At Nationals last year, Greg saw the extra attachment points and asked Mark if I had taken the +2 points. I was confused and countered that it was allowed in the rules. As I had proven to me, it is allowed as an exception driver side only for the added safety of the driver since we drive plastic/balsa wood cars. So, I had to cut out the two bars on the passenger side. Several of my racing friends argued (after the fact) that those extra bars on a C5Z06 do nothing for extra stiffness and provided zero performance benefit. I completely agree. But as an ex-Mustang and Mustang Cobra owner, I know exactly how beneficial the extra attachment points are on the Fox, NS95, and New Edge platform. So why would it be fair for me to have something for free that they could not? This is a very long way of saying, it is easier for the officials and inspectors to have a single set of rules versus a billion pages of exceptions. You think post race inspections take a while now, imagine if there was a rule book and a resident expert on hand for every possible model of car that raced? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboShortBus Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 At Nationals last year, Greg saw the extra attachment points and asked Mark if I had taken the +2 points. I was confused and countered that it was allowed in the rules. As I had proven to me, it is allowed as an exception driver side only for the added safety of the driver since we drive plastic/balsa wood cars. So, I had to cut out the two bars on the passenger side. To clarify: You had to take the +2 points for the additional cage attachments. You chose to cut out the two bars on the passenger side. It definitely did not make me happy to see you, Morris, and Domo break out the cutting gear, although I greatly appreciated you guys being good sportsmen about it. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varkwso Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 At Nationals last year, Greg saw the extra attachment points and asked Mark if I had taken the +2 points. I was confused and countered that it was allowed in the rules. As I had proven to me, it is allowed as an exception driver side only for the added safety of the driver since we drive plastic/balsa wood cars. So, I had to cut out the two bars on the passenger side. To clarify: You had to take the +2 points for the additional cage attachments. You chose to cut out the two bars on the passenger side. It definitely did not make me happy to see you, Morris, and Domo break out the cutting gear, although I greatly appreciated you guys being good sportsmen about it. Mark Me too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brkntrxn Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 Mark, You are correct. If it had kept raining, I could have taken the 2pts with the rain tires. It was safer to cut the bars and pray for sunshine, LOL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troyguitar Posted August 14, 2013 Author Share Posted August 14, 2013 Sounds like I don't want to go to nationals anyway, after this thread I'm sure it will be demanded that my gearbox be taken apart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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