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troyguitar

What's the official line on mods that slow the car down?

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CWeber
Sounds like I don't want to go to nationals anyway, after this thread I'm sure it will be demanded that my gearbox be taken apart

 

There is a minimum requirement of 5 TT days in the same calendar year of Nationals to be eligible to participate so unless I missed something, I only see you completed 1 TT day this year in July.

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troyguitar

This year is just some limited testing, I'm planning for next year. Too bad Nationals aren't at Mid-Ohio anymore since it's close to me and I've raced there a dozen times.

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kbrew8991

2014 has yet to be announced...

 

If you're out only for fun, Nationals may be a bit SRSBZNS for you. It's fun for me, but...

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troyguitar

We'll see, it's a long way off. I was 5 seconds off the pace in my first test but 300-ish pounds overweight and only taking 1 point. Second test next month should have better tires, suspension, and brakes at least. I still don't see how a 4100 lb car with 265 whp is classed as TTC base in the first place with 16.7 adjusted wt/pwr but that's another discussion - perhaps the more important one to take up with management as getting the base dropped to TTD would free up enough points that I wouldn't care about gear ratios. Starting in TTC just makes it too easy to end up into TT3.

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clydesdale

Advice: Yell at the wall about your car's classing and when you're done go buy a prepared S2000.

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sixshooter
Second test next month should have better tires, suspension, and brakes at least.

Having done the rough math, if you picked up an annual average of 3mpg at 35k miles per year (because all driving is mixed driving and even in highway driving we aren't always in top gear), you'd be saving about $600. Your rationale makes me scratch my head. I know the gear and the labor to change it isn't cheap, probably more than that, so the benefit is negligible. Add the cost of "racing" by adding better tires, suspension, brakes, etc. and you are talking about several times that. Add ~$400 for the entry fees each weekend, $100 per night for a hotel and food, tracktime fuel, extra brake wear, extra tire wear, traveling fuel, and all of the other incidentals. If you cannot reasonably afford to buy some extra fuel each year, how do you rationalize roughly $800 minimum per weekend?

 

Truth be told, it actually costs $800 for me to do it in a beater Miata with $22 brake rotors and used spec Miata tires. An Audi A4 must be many times that. Ergo, there is no real point to this line of questioning. Either you can afford to track the car or you cannot. Swapping gears is rearranging the deck chairs.

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troyguitar
If you cannot reasonably afford to buy some extra fuel each year, how do you rationalize roughly $800 minimum per weekend?

 

I'm not running it due to financial restrictions. If I wanted to build a TT3 Corvette or whatever, I would do that.

 

Good logic though. $50 per month is not a lot of money compared to the $500 per month that I already spend, therefore I should just light it on fire instead of saving it.

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speedengineer

Optimized street car /= optimized TT car. Pick one. //thread.

 

We've been here before with the s2k hardtop thread; It will get you nowhere. Rules are rules.

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troyguitar
We've been here before with the s2k hardtop thread; It will get you nowhere. Rules are rules.

 

This is not the same. Changing a gear that is not used on the track is more analogous to adding a second more aggressive ECU tune option.

 

The hardtop is active on the car on the track at all times and is thus assessed points.

 

The ECU tune option can be used on the track OR NOT and it is left up to the honor system and ignored for classification purposes if you say you are not using it.

 

The changed gear can also be used on the track OR NOT and would be even easier to detect use if the driver states that (s)he is not using it - YET it is assessed points. This is illogical.

 

Either all cars should be classified based on their highest peak HP ECU tune or other modifications that can be turned off should be allowed to be ignored for classification purposes if the driver states that they will always be turned off in TT sessions.

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fox4life
Rules are rules.

 

This thread is going literally nowhere...

 

//thread.

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kbrew8991

I really wish we could rely soley on the honor system

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troyguitar
I really wish we could rely soley on the honor system

 

So you go to great lengths to allow people the choice of using multiple tunes without being classed based on the most powerful one?

 

Why do that but NOT allow people the choice of using or not using other mods and be classed based on only the ones that are being used on the track?

 

Is it easier to prove that someone turned up their boost by 5% than that they shifted into 6th gear?

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TurboShortBus

Here is a suggestion: Run TT for at least a full season with the existing rule set, in whatever class your car fits into, with the modifications that you choose for whatever reasons you have (whether or not you feel that they make the car faster), while actually sorting out your car and improving your driving. Have some fun in the process.

 

At the same time, take into consideration the hundreds of TT competitors across the country for the past 10-ish years who have modified, un-modified, re-modified, and sometimes hacked their cars in order to meet the existing rules while remaining sportsmen/sportswomen about the process (don’t forget about the volunteer staff of officials who are there to help ensure that all competitors play by the rules).

 

Over the course of that full season with your dual-purpose car, you might decide that you actually want to be competitive and build a track-only car, or you might strip everything off and return it to a bone stock grocery getter with 6 overdrive gears for hypermiling on your way to work and never turn a wheel on track again. In any case, you need to give TT a fair shot before you do what you are doing here.

 

I see no need to continue trying to kick water uphill in this thread.

 

Mark

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troyguitar

Yes let's knock the driver instead of addressing the argument. Here's the one event I ran in a car that wasn't ridiculously optimistic in its base class. Bone stock car except for ECU tune (which bumps the car's wt/pwr ratio into TTD despite the TTE base class) and stock sized 225 wide Hankook RS3 street tires:

 

http://www.nasa-tt.com/Northeast_Regional_Results/p2041_articleid/47

 

http://www.nasa-tt.com/Northeast_Regional_Results/p2041_articleid/46

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CWeber
Yes let's knock the driver instead of addressing the argument.

 

 

I must have missed something again with my reading comprehension because I do not see anyone 'knocking the driver' here. I do see suggestions, recommendations and facts.

 

Fact is you are still a rookie TT driver with a total of 3 TT days under your belt (unless I missed something?) so folks here have been trying to give you advise that you seem to be taking the wrong way (shrugs).

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troyguitar

I presented a logical argument. Instead of addressing it, I am getting lectures on finance and told to practice my driving. The argument is either valid or it isn't - my experience is not relevant. If I am so clueless, then show me what I'm missing.

 

Argument:

 

The ECU tune option can be used on the track OR NOT and it is difficult to police yet it is ignored for classification purposes if you say you are not using it.

 

The changed gear can also be used on the track OR NOT and would be easier to detect use if the driver states that (s)he is not using it - YET it is assessed points. This is illogical.

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speedengineer
I presented a logical argument. Instead of addressing it, I am getting lectures on finance and told to practice my driving. The argument is either valid or it isn't - my experience is not relevant. If I am so clueless, then show me what I'm missing.

 

Troy, nobody is knocking your driving. Mark's argument was that after running a full season of TT, you may have a better idea of where you want to take your car - turn it into a fully prepped caged car, leave it as a dual purpose vehicle, or put it back to a street car and get a different dedicated TT car. It was just a suggestion.

 

Besides, the TT ruleset is just that - a rule set. The rulebook doesn't care how much money you save with a taller 6th gear, nor how good of a driver you are. It cares that your car is legal per the rulebook. It's not that your argument is not valid, just that it is not relevant. There can't be exceptions made for every vehicle and competitor in the country just because your argument makes sense. There are plenty of rules I disagree with, or rules that aren't very applicable to my car, but I have to accept the fact that despite my opinions, I still have to be legal per the rulebook, just like everybody else.

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Varkwso

Wow, just wow.

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OSOSLOW
I presented a logical argument. Instead of addressing it, I am getting lectures on finance and told to practice my driving. The argument is either valid or it isn't - my experience is not relevant. If I am so clueless, then show me what I'm missing.

 

Argument:

 

The ECU tune option can be used on the track OR NOT and it is difficult to police yet it is ignored for classification purposes if you say you are not using it.

 

The changed gear can also be used on the track OR NOT and would be easier to detect use if the driver states that (s)he is not using it - YET it is assessed points. This is illogical.

 

-I didn't see anyone "lecturing" you on finance. I saw someone pose a simple math question that suggested it might take a while for the mod to pay off. You provided evidence to the contrary.

 

-No one said you need to practice. Every time you are on track you are learning and improving and with that seat time comes a better understanding of what the car needs or doesn't need.

 

-Couldn't the HP of a car be determined by throwing a traqmate in the car for a session? (for regions or events that don't have a dyno on site) That would make the multiple tunes easy to police.

 

-And the multiple tunes are not ignored, the TT director for your region can choose to go by the honor system for that rule just like they use the honor system when they don't tear your transmission apart to make sure you haven't changed any gears...

 

-Have you emailed Greg yet or are you just trying to give the S2000 hardtop thread a run for it's money?

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troyguitar

I'm just trying to facilitate discussion. Is this a discussion forum or just a Q&A board?

 

Perhaps I should have started a new thread specifically for the discussion since the original question was answered in the second post, but it seemed just as well to continue in this one.

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