Tire advice

[brkntrxn]

Since I agree with his assessment 100%, I'll say that it's the part about them only lasting 3-5 laps. Aside from rain, the only two things that make tires lose grip that fast are being cycled out or overdriven.

 

 

Yep.

[brkntrxn]

MikeAtl wrote:

Kevin, yes, first time on the ground. They behaved this way for three 20 minute sessions. So, a noob question, does "one" heat cycle = one track session? Meaning, one cold-to-hot-to-cold transition?

 

Thanks,

Mike

 

 

In general, yes, one session or one race is a heat cycle. But it depends on how much they cooled between sessions. Technically, you could put two heat cycles on a tire in a single race if you have a slow, extended double yellow or a an extended red flag. That is why you see us and the professionals weaving on the yellow laps to keep heat in the tires.

 

I am sure the link above explains it, but after you perform the initial heat cycle, you should let the tire sit for 24 hours before the next use.

 

Darn, I hope I did not ruin them...

 

 

No, I doubt it. Maybe shortened the life a tad, but I doubt it.

 

I will say that the first couple of times I drove on r-comps I was less than impressed. With all of the stories, I expected "cat on carpet grip" right out of the paddock. You won't get that until you run sticker A6s. And then you will feel like a cat on Berber carpet with a Superman cape while wearing Hermes' sandals.

[MikeAtl]

Kevin, thanks. Headed to VIR in September with another (but nice) group, so will have another go then.

 

Mike

Edited August 8, 2013 by Guest

[MikeAtl]

Hey, I saw that...

[aaronsti]

ok so i'm going to add some more details so you can help me figure out my over driving(thanks). I more notice the lack of grip in braking zones than the corners. the abs interferes more for the same braking as beginning of session and I need to start braking earlier. then another couple laps the grip starts to become noticeable in the corners (guess if I was cornering faster It would show sooner ) heres a vid of me

thanks for the help

[ILIKETODRIVE]

My lap times on Firebird West were better with RS3's than NT01's, all else being totally equal. The RS3's are a truly outstanding bang for the buck.

I can offer a counterpoint to this, being a local and FIRW record holder: When I first went from 205 RA1s to 225 NT01s, I was slower. It took me a couple of weekends to realize that my corner entry/mid corner/exit speeds could be 2-3 mph more and would make up for the time I was losing on straights being on a wider/heavier tire. Likewise, the NT01 is slightly stickier than the RS3 and therefore may slow you down slightly on straights. Corner speeds and everything else being equal the RS3 is going to be at worst the same if not quicker.

 

This is apples to oranges but my best time on fresh 205 R888s was a 1:07.1 and on used 225 RS3s was a 1:09.0. After 5-6 laps the RS3s went to hell whereas the R888s held up great for an entire 75-minute enduro.

[MFE]

ok so i'm going to add some more details so you can help me figure out my over driving(thanks). I more notice the lack of grip in braking zones than the corners. the abs interferes more for the same braking as beginning of session and I need to start braking earlier. then another couple laps the grip starts to become noticeable in the corners (guess if I was cornering faster It would show sooner ) heres a vid of me

thanks for the help

 

Granted I only watched a few minutes of the video, but it doesn't *look* like you're overdriving them.

[aaronsti]

ok so i'm going to add some more details so you can help me figure out my over driving(thanks). I more notice the lack of grip in braking zones than the corners. the abs interferes more for the same braking as beginning of session and I need to start braking earlier. then another couple laps the grip starts to become noticeable in the corners (guess if I was cornering faster It would show sooner ) heres a vid of me

thanks for the help

 

Granted I only watched a few minutes of the video, but it doesn't *look* like you're overdriving them.

 

 

I didn't think I was over driving.

[brkntrxn]

 

I didn't think I was over driving.

 

 

I finally got a chance to watch the video. I agree. I don't see any evidence of you overdriving them. How old are the NT01s in question?

 

I have had sets of NT01s last upwards of 75 heat cycles. The last set I ran years ago, I purposely tried to cord them as I have a personal rule to use a tire until I see metal. I could leave black marks at 105mph shifting to 4th in my Z06. They simply became unsafe before I ever corded that set. I was actually sad to throw them away with rubber still on them.

[aaronsti]

 

I didn't think I was over driving.

 

 

I finally got a chance to watch the video. I agree. I don't see any evidence of you overdriving them. How old are the NT01s in question?

 

I have had sets of NT01s last upwards of 75 heat cycles. The last set I ran years ago, I purposely tried to cord them as I have a personal rule to use a tire until I see metal. I could leave black marks at 105mph shifting to 4th in my Z06. They simply became unsafe before I ever corded that set. I was actually sad to throw them away with rubber still on them.

 

they're hankook rs3's. they have 4 trackdays and about 1000 street miles mainly from driving to and from the track and shop that works on my car when its something I can't do myself. I had meant my original question to be will nt01s stand up to heat better than rs3s

[brkntrxn]

Aaron,

 

I have never run Hankooks, so hopefully someone else will chime in with a real-world comparison.

 

I did like NT01s and ran them on multiple vehicles, for multiple years, in multiple sizes. I would still run them if my competition would not run Hoosiers.

[FASTFATBOY]

I run the NT-05 in a 275/40/17 on a 3800lb car. Really an amazing tire and from Discount Tire Direct they are $660 a set to my door.

[427R]

I've run the Nitto NT01's for 2 years now. This year I'm running DE3 and have been a lot more agressive with them and they're holding up just fine. Rotate them, front to back after each full day of tracking. Have no complaints with them. Planning on going with 275/35-18 size next year vs. current 275/40-18, less sidewall flex. Would like to go with a 285/35-18 set up, but none out there.

[MFE]

I've found the RS3's to be surprisingly fade-resistant even in Phoenix track-day environment. At least as durable as the NT01 if not even better, while being quieter to run and infinitely better in wet conditions. And that's without being shaved...I wonder how they'd be if they had a few tenths knocked off first.

[aaronsti]

I just realized something. I run some toe out .14 degrees front .05 degrees rear, per side. how much would the bit of scrubbing affect tire heat? thanks

[clydesdale]

I just ran the Dunlop ZII this past weekend at Gingerman, 3 races, 1 qual and a practice. I was experimenting with cheaper slower tires than the normal R6 and RA-1 that I've run in the past and I'll have to say I was really pleasantly surprised. They were just as fast as an RA-1 in a smaller size (ZII-255/40r17 vs. RA-1-235/45r17) and were nearly as fast as older heat cycled R6's (225/45r17). I think the ZII in the larger size had more even wear too. Given that the ZII was almost half the price of the Hoosier and about 2/3rds the price of the Toyo I look forward to making this tire work if I can. It's not going to win races against guys on R6's. But since I don't get other PTB cars in our region I don't typically care and now with the new Matrix Race format running the slower tire isn't necessarily a disadvantage anymore.

 

I noticed two minor detrimental things with the tire. First, they lacked grip under braking when cold. This might also have been caused by the tire being brand new, I didn't really run it cold after they had been scuffed up a bit. Second, it seemed to be fairly sensitive to track temperature. This is more a qualitative observation, I ran laps at mid-day which were 1-2 seconds slower than either the morning or evening. It certainly could have been something in my driving or the race environment which caused the gap so I'll need more data to really understand it.

[fox4life]

I just ran the Dunlop ZII this past weekend at Gingerman, 3 races, 1 qual and a practice. I was experimenting with cheaper slower tires than the normal R6 and RA-1 that I've run in the past and I'll have to say I was really pleasantly surprised. They were just as fast as an RA-1 in a smaller size (ZII-255/40r17 vs. RA-1-235/45r17) and were nearly as fast as older heat cycled R6's (225/45r17). I think the ZII in the larger size had more even wear too. Given that the ZII was almost half the price of the Hoosier and about 2/3rds the price of the Toyo I look forward to making this tire work if I can. It's not going to win races against guys on R6's. But since I don't get other PTB cars in our region I don't typically care and now with the new Matrix Race format running the slower tire isn't necessarily a disadvantage anymore.

 

I noticed two minor detrimental things with the tire. First, they lacked grip under braking when cold. This might also have been caused by the tire being brand new, I didn't really run it cold after they had been scuffed up a bit. Second, it seemed to be fairly sensitive to track temperature. This is more a qualitative observation, I ran laps at mid-day which were 1-2 seconds slower than either the morning or evening. It certainly could have been something in my driving or the race environment which caused the gap so I'll need more data to really understand it.

 

 

I've run those and the original star specs in that size for the last few years in hpde and had a very similar opinion as you. For the price you really can't beat them, not only are they much cheaper, but they last a very long time. The star specs I had last year had 8-10 track days with 3-4 sessions each day, and almost 10,000 street miles and were barely down to the wear bars when I replaced them.

 

Like you said, obviously they aren't going to be as fast as an r6, but in a similar size comparison (255 zII vs. Newer 245 r6's) on my car with nothing else changed they were only about 2 seconds a lap slower at Gingerman, and less than 3 seconds at mid ohio. Which, for being a street tire is very impressive.

[wera44]

I just ran the Dunlop ZII this past weekend at Gingerman, 3 races, 1 qual and a practice. I was experimenting with cheaper slower tires than the normal R6 and RA-1 that I've run in the past and I'll have to say I was really pleasantly surprised. They were just as fast as an RA-1 in a smaller size (ZII-255/40r17 vs. RA-1-235/45r17) and were nearly as fast as older heat cycled R6's (225/45r17). I think the ZII in the larger size had more even wear too. Given that the ZII was almost half the price of the Hoosier and about 2/3rds the price of the Toyo I look forward to making this tire work if I can. It's not going to win races against guys on R6's. But since I don't get other PTB cars in our region I don't typically care and now with the new Matrix Race format running the slower tire isn't necessarily a disadvantage anymore.

 

I noticed two minor detrimental things with the tire. First, they lacked grip under braking when cold. This might also have been caused by the tire being brand new, I didn't really run it cold after they had been scuffed up a bit. Second, it seemed to be fairly sensitive to track temperature. This is more a qualitative observation, I ran laps at mid-day which were 1-2 seconds slower than either the morning or evening. It certainly could have been something in my driving or the race environment which caused the gap so I'll need more data to really understand it.

 

 

What temperature range were you running the tire in?

[clydesdale]

Damn fine question but I have no idea as my temp probe was stolen from my trailer and I never bought a new one. I'd like to say somewhere in the 180's but that would be an uneducated guess. Ambient was about 80, track temp maybe 100-110. You bring up a good point though about temperature. I notice that the F1 guys run the 4 different constructions and get varying results at varying tracks and temperatures. Is there a case where a harder compound tire might be a better choice than a soft one? They always seem to complain about not being able to keep heat in a harder compound but then they last more than half the race.

[wera44]

Not sure I'm pretty new to cars. I spent the last 10 years racing motorcycles. Slicks had a soft, medium, and hard compound. If i remember right we used a softer tire when it was cold, and mediums the rest of the time. The only time we ever used the hard tire was during an endurance race. I'm sure this really doesn't apply to cars though. From what I have read I thought that 200 TW tires liked closer to 190 but I'm not 100% sure. Might be time to replace the stolen pyrometer

[Apexkingjusto]

First off, just want to say it's nice I find a forum where people of all ranges of experience can ask questions and get a lot of advice! Have a feeling I'll be spending more and more time here.

 

Regarding the slip angle between let's say an NT01 and A6 or similar, at what level do you feel someone is safe to upgrade? My guess is unless your running in group 4 or at least in 3 on the verge to 4 it's probably not a great idea right? Let's add to this, in a 8:1 car with RWD and medium to hard spring rates 700/580, but BIG solid front sway bar (help decrease oversteer).