944-Spec#94 Posted July 26, 2005 Share Posted July 26, 2005 (edited) *****Updated.... Seems like Folks agree the 88 is NOT faster! ****** I have seen more than few complaints on POC forums about the 88 cars in 944-spec. It seems some folks think they are faster than the non 88 cars. What are everyone's thoughts now that we have been at this thing for 3 years come September? Back when this all started the rules had wording that said a weight penatly might be imposed for 88's to keep things competitive. Over the years there has been no definitive evidence showing that the 88 was really faster (note not talking about 5th gear here). So no penatly was imposed. So what are the current thoughts? I know folks still think the 88 motor or at least pistons are the ones to have. I myself ran a couple events with an 88 motor and saw no change in lap times or power from my 84/87 cobbled togther motor. Dilly is fast, but at Calif Speedway we ran pretty close. He did pull away each time exiting the infield and getting up on the banking, but I believe that was due to better driving as we seemed quite even on the infield. So... should we impose a penatly for the 88? Is it a part of the car (ie chassis, suspension arms) or just the high compression pistons? Really if there are concerns out there lets air them out rather than let them fester into real problems. BTW... The short 5th gear thing is probably going to stay since by now I'd figure that there are more folks with short 5th than without it any more. Edited July 27, 2005 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeanutinCA Posted July 26, 2005 Share Posted July 26, 2005 Are you guys going to kill the re-sale value for the guys with the 88's? What about people with the 88 engines or components? Maybe an 88 is faster when 'fully' developed? When it has 'more' hp than a non 88? But when it has less, what then? P.D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packfill Posted July 26, 2005 Share Posted July 26, 2005 Joe, This is a topic of MUCH conversation, as Dilly is pretty much my racing partner and we drive together A LOT.... as much as I CONSTANTLY give Dylan crap about the 88 having a huge advantage, deep down (I can't believe I am saying this) it is probably more perceived than real. I do believe the 88 is a better car and ULTIMATELY could have an advantage, if each one of us built these cars from the gound up considering each detail. and drove them 10/10s... but none of us does... I think any WELL BUILT 944-spec will be competitive. Lets break down the advantages of an 88.. 1) Domed Pistons-(anyone can run these) 2) Higher Stock C/R-This is only an advantage it the 88 owner wants to cheat and mill above 10.5 or 11/1. I do feel this is an advantage, but if you are going to cheat....you are going to cheat.... 3) Longer A-arms- Small advantage, with reduced Bump Steer, but are we going to disallow 87s also?? This is probably more a safety item than anything. THe ball joints on an 88 handle the lowering a bit easier. Also, I beleive the heavier unsprung weight of the phone dials offsets this a bit.... 4) Better DME-Advantage, but minimal... 5) MORE STRUTS AVAILABLE-This is plain wrong, but the way I interpret the rules...we can backdate struts for the 88 to earlier cars.... I think that is about all.... Look, If I was going to start over again, I would buy an 88, but I never show up to the track thinking I dont have a chance because I own an 86.... With that said, I suggest a 250lb penalty for the 88, effective immediately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeanutinCA Posted July 26, 2005 Share Posted July 26, 2005 ....THe ball joints on an 88 handle the lowering a bit easier. With that said, I suggest a 250lb penalty for the 88, effective immediately. I thought the lowering on the aluminum arms was actually a problem point? A weakness of the later arms? As for you last point, is dragging around your complaining a$$ like carrying a 250# anchor anyway? P.D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packfill Posted July 26, 2005 Share Posted July 26, 2005 The aluminum A arms are a problem for all cars, but since the 88 arms are longer the angle compared to the ball joint isnt as great.... How about we Grandfather all current 88 owners/car combinations, and just disallow them going forward? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
944-Spec#94 Posted July 26, 2005 Author Share Posted July 26, 2005 Joe, This is a topic of MUCH conversation, as Dilly is pretty much my racing partner and we drive together A LOT.... as much as I CONSTANTLY give Dylan crap about the 88 having a huge advantage, deep down (I can't believe I am saying this) it is probably more perceived than real. I do believe the 88 is a better car and ULTIMATELY could have an advantage, if each one of us built these cars from the gound up considering each detail. and drove them 10/10s... but none of us does... I think any WELL BUILT 944-spec will be competitive. Lets break down the advantages of an 88.. I really don't want anyone to think I started this because I think Dilly has an advantage. I don't think that. I do think he is a solid driver and his results are because of that and not because of his car. I personally want to clear the air a bit and not make it worse. I feel open discussion will help this. 1) Domed Pistons-(anyone can run these) These pistons are not domed, they just have less of cut out from the 9.6:1 piston in the other motors. Remember the euro cars had flat toped 10.6:1 pistons. These of course are not legal in 944-spec since they are not US spec parts. Yes anyone can run 88 pistons in their car as these pistons fit in all blocks (assuming right tolerance group). 2) Higher Stock C/R-This is only an advantage it the 88 owner wants to cheat and mill above 10.5 or 11/1. I do feel this is an advantage, but if you are going to cheat....you are going to cheat.... This why we have a CR limit in the rules. Exceed it any way and you are not legeal. Just because it is easier to be illegeal with 88 pistons does not make the pistons bad. I think we agree on this point. 3) Longer A-arms- Small advantage, with reduced Bump Steer, but are we going to disallow 87s also?? This is probably more a safety item than anything. THe ball joints on an 88 handle the lowering a bit easier. Also, I beleive the heavier unsprung weight of the phone dials offsets this a bit.... Interesting thoughts... but you are spot on on the 87's and it is legal in our rules to swap any year chassis to 87 and later offsets. You just need to use the right wheels to keep the track stock. One benefit of the early offset cars is that you can use steel arms which are cheap and have replacable ball joints. 4) Better DME-Advantage, but minimal... How is the DME better? I understand that stock it is tuned for the 10.2:1 CR engine, but is it some how better? Help me here? 5) MORE STRUTS AVAILABLE-This is plain wrong, but the way I interpret the rules...we can backdate struts for the 88 to earlier cars.... We only allow Koni and Bilstein dampers. How is it an advantage for the 88 cars? I know my car run inserts in stock stuts and later cars run sealed one piece units. Note that these you now have to cut and install the insert as Koni no longer makes the entire strut anymore. Again please help me understand this. I think that is about all.... Look, If I was going to start over again, I would buy an 88, but I never show up to the track thinking I dont have a chance because I own an 86.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packfill Posted July 26, 2005 Share Posted July 26, 2005 (edited) How is the DME better? I understand that stock it is tuned for the 10.2:1 CR engine, but is it some how better? Help me here? The Processing unit is faster.... We only allow Koni and Bilstein dampers. How is it an advantage for the 88 cars? I know my car run inserts in stock stuts and later cars run sealed one piece units. Note that these you now have to cut and install the insert as Koni no longer makes the entire strut anymore. Again please help me understand this. If you run Konis, there is no difference, but if you run Bilsteins, the only Bilstein racing suspension that is in the rules are the struts... the bilstein inserts are not racing suspension as the rebound is WAY too low....and the bilstein struts that are named, will ONLY fit the 87 and 88 car, because they are the longer arms....(from the Turbo) and have a different offset between the holes in the steering knuckle. Edited July 26, 2005 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeanutinCA Posted July 26, 2005 Share Posted July 26, 2005 I really don't want anyone to think I started this because I think Dilly has an advantage. I don't think that. I do think he is a solid driver and his results are because of that and not because of his car. I personally want to clear the air a bit and not make it worse. I feel open discussion will help this. Oh I certainly didn't think that for a minute Joe. We is cool! P.D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
944-Spec#94 Posted July 26, 2005 Author Share Posted July 26, 2005 How is the DME better? I understand that stock it is tuned for the 10.2:1 CR engine, but is it some how better? Help me here? The Processing unit is faster.... We only allow Koni and Bilstein dampers. How is it an advantage for the 88 cars? I know my car run inserts in stock stuts and later cars run sealed one piece units. Note that these you now have to cut and install the insert as Koni no longer makes the entire strut anymore. Again please help me understand this. If you run Konis, there is no difference, but if you run Bilsteins, the only Bilstein racing suspension that is in the rules are the struts... the bilstein inserts are not racing suspension as the rebound is WAY too low....and the bilstein struts that are named, will ONLY fit the 87 and 88 car, because they are the longer arms....(from the Turbo) and have a different offset between the holes in the steering knuckle. I was not aware of the Bilstein issue. Thanks for make me aware of it. There is an easy way to solve that issue. (some won't like it) Koni only by rule. How many folks are running Bilsteins? Dwain... anyone else? BTW... this is probably not worth any advantage... Least I have always assumed both dampers were roughly equivalent. Anyone have other information? Not sure the a faster processor is going to make any hp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packfill Posted July 26, 2005 Share Posted July 26, 2005 Write me, Ray Dicius, Duane, et all, the check for our Bilsteins and we will agree to the rule.... this is probably not worth any advantage Then why worry??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
944-Spec#94 Posted July 26, 2005 Author Share Posted July 26, 2005 Write me, Ray Dicius, Duane, et all, the check for our Bilsteins and we will agree to the rule.... this is probably not worth any advantage Then why worry??? Well you mentioned it as being an advantage for the 88's as they are not avaible on the other cars. Well IF the Bilsteins are so much better than the Koni's the anwer is not disallow the 88's, but to remove the Bilsteins. Now of course I do not really know if they are really better or it just conjecture. If there is proof they are "better" then the solution is simple... ... yes it will suck for some, but we can't let this series turn into something unfair because the stupid rules makers could not see everything the first time around. Like said I don't have any proof or even any feeling if they are "better" or not so I am NOT advocating any rule change here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Autosport944 Posted July 26, 2005 Share Posted July 26, 2005 Before you guys go crazy with the '88s. I think it is time to let everyone know... I don't think Dylan has an '88. His car was manufactured in June of 1987. By Porsche's numbers, that makes it an '87!!!! Perhaps you need to look to at some other car to find a difference, but I don't think Dylans car is the one to look at. Sorry if that kills your resale value Dylan. Glen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
944-Spec#94 Posted July 26, 2005 Author Share Posted July 26, 2005 Dylan what is letter before the in N in your vin. ?N46123 That will tell for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packfill Posted July 26, 2005 Share Posted July 26, 2005 Joe, I AGREE!! NO RULE CHANGES.... The series is working. We are usually the biggest class at most events... Why fix whats not broken?? I simply listed the differences..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
944-Spec#94 Posted July 26, 2005 Author Share Posted July 26, 2005 Well, Honestly I see some folks looking to build the boxster and 911 spec classes in POC. That is fine, but in those threads I have seen talk about 944-spec not being as "fair" as maybe 911 or Boxster spec could be. So if there are places where the 944-spec can be make more "fair" then lets look at them. If it just a Myth then lest debunk that. Really I think 944-spec rules are pretty good at doing the three things we wanted. 1) Keep car build and operating costs low - 944-spec needs to be "Cheap" or what ever that means. 2) Keeping all the car cars competitive with no "must have" model - all car models must have a reasonable chance of winning for "cheap" and this should not be a car builders series. 3) Allowing the cars enough mods to be fun and reasonably fast. Hey we could have spec big wheel series, but what fun is it to run a lap of willow in 15 min. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
944 Swede Posted July 26, 2005 Share Posted July 26, 2005 Just look at the results so far. No one is dominating. Leave things as they are. The -88 car is not running away on the front straight at Willow as demonstrated at the last race. If Dylan is faster thru the turns then I see that as a pleasant problem. A challenge to work on my setup and driving. Mikael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Autosport944 Posted July 26, 2005 Share Posted July 26, 2005 In all honesty and reality. The Spec Boxster class will come to fruition regardless of what the 944 group does. Boxster prices are falling rapidly and they are destined to become race cars. The Boxster has one huge disadvantage as a race car which lends itself to being a spec class. NOBODY offers any custom engine or transmission gears for the car. Also, PCNA and local dealers are offering support of the idea of building the class. By sticking with only the 2.5's, all cars will be equal. However, the cost to build a car will be about $15,000 plus the car. That should be about double a 944. And the speed? A well built and well driven Boxster Spec should do about a 1:34 at Big Willow. Not too many people will see a 2 second advantage as worth another $15,000. I don't really see the Boxster class as a threat to the continued growth of the 944Spec class. Glen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Comeau Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 In my experience, I don't see any compelling reason to ban the 88's or their engines. The chief advantage is the compression ratio and the earlier cars can match that by installing the 88 pistons or milling the head. Correct that the 88 pistons aren't domed. The 944 pistons are flat-topped. The early cars have a depression in the center of the piston about the size of a quarter. The 88's depression is closer to the size of a dime. In any case, I'll echo the words,"No 88 cars are running away with the series." This is a good thread, you guys. Get the stuff out in the open. I'm more concerned with non-stock headers and tons of dyno time to flash chips absolutely optimally for power. Jim, can you post what you learned about the Bilstein shock numbers compared to the 400 lb springs. Remember that my car was porpoising at the turn in point of turn 2 at Willow after I switched to the Bilstein inserts for my 924S. The car didn't do this with the adj. Koni's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeanutinCA Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 Todays program is brought to you by the letter "J". I'm an 88, thanks for asking! I'm the one with the advantage, I know. But here's a thought, I WILL swap cars with people and let them try mine out. And I challenge them to go faster in it. I also challenge myself to go faster in their cars. Simple. P.D.88.Out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
944 Swede Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 People, People, People, This is your warning, HE did it to me and I fell for it. Keep HIM away from your car. Ever since HE drove my car I have had nothing but problems. I'm stuttering, I'm down to 129hp, my windshield is cracked, the alignment is off, zero grip through the turns. The list goes on... It's a conspiracy, no really! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packfill Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 Mikael....that KILLED me.....ILMAO!!!!! Really, Dylans car is NOT what makes him fast....Dylan is just naturally great at EVERYTHING!!!......just ask him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Comeau Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 I want to drive Dwain's car.............Well, it's really Steve Bernheim's car...but he doesn't drive it during the races? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeanutinCA Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 Mikael....that KILLED me.....ILMAO!!!!! Really, Dylans car is NOT what makes him fast....Dylan is just naturally great at EVERYTHING!!!......just ask him. Not great Jim, just better than you!!!! Hah hah ahha hah aha!!! Now, where's my check book, need to go buy some Bilstiens! P.D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
944-Spec#94 Posted July 27, 2005 Author Share Posted July 27, 2005 Todays program is brought to you by the letter "J". I'm an 88, thanks for asking! I'm the one with the advantage, I know. But here's a thought, I WILL swap cars with people and let them try mine out. And I challenge them to go faster in it. I also challenge myself to go faster in their cars. Simple. P.D.88.Out. Ok yep that is an 88 my friend. Ok Cool - So the 88 is NOT faster. Yippie! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeanutinCA Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 (edited) Ok Cool - So the 88 is NOT faster. Yippie! Well, maybe not, UNLESS fully developed. It may be true that if one were to fully develop the 88, then it may be an advantage? If I get 138-140 hp out of my car, then that would get towards being an advantage. ALTHOUGH, at 138 hp I'd be matching some non 88 cars, so who has the advantage? If I add the AK???? model number Bilstiens, then I may have an advantage, but seeing as anyone can use them, where's the advantage then? So, we are down to a 'faster' ECU and slightly longer control arms that carry heavier wheels. Oh, I have slightly bigger oil pan, perhaps slightly better cooling then? But, we all can add oil coolers, so again, where's the advantage. Hmm, glad we have this conversation. So, anymore perceived advantages? P.D. Edited July 27, 2005 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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