pixrken Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 Are later model 944's (85.5+) that much heavier than the earlier 944's? After your race at Willow Springs and after all the podium winners went on the scale my friend Greg (the other Norcal 944) ask if we can get our cars weigh. The gentlemen operating the scale was nice enough to let our cars on and give us the weight of our cars (with us in it of course). My car came in at 2741 I had a little over half a tank of gas and still have a full size battery. Gas is about 5.8 to 6.5 lbs per gallon pending temperature so assuming 6.1 lbs x 11 gallons = 67.1 plus maybe 15 lbs if I got a lightweight battery is about 82 lbs. 2741 - 82 = 2659 which isn't too bad but considering I have no door windows, no headlight motor, no windshield wipers or wiper motor, a/c delete, etc. it's heavier than I thought. I still have most of the tar mat. I tried removing the tar with 3M adhesive remover which works but can only dissolve and loosen the edges. After half a day I only got 3/4 of the passenger side tunnel tar removed and gave up. I'll revisit this again with a heat gun. Even with the tar mats removed I'll be hard press to find any signifcant areas to remove weight. At least I have my super duper '88 engine to overcome the added weight My friend Greg's '83 weigh in at 2813 with half a tank of gas but he has a streetable car with full interior, power windows, headlights with motor, windshield wipers (front & rear), a big subwoofer plus the amp., he does have the a/c delete but Greg also weights more than me. Seems like the early 944's start off much lighter and follows what Joe P. says of needing ballast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
944-Spec#94 Posted July 27, 2005 Author Share Posted July 27, 2005 Are later model 944's (85.5+) that much heavier than the earlier 944's? Well after the 88's are too fast debate... the late cars are too heavy debate picks up steam. Really I don't know. What I do know is that my car which is an 84 needs to carry ballast to make weight. It also runs a full size batter any functional powerwindows. I don't know for sure, but it really seems like most folks strip and seem to be over weight. Then they work at it and get the cars down. Now taking weight out of the 944 to get it race weight is not super hard, but not something that you can over look. I have been reducing weight in my car since day one. Little here and little there. I have spent many hours looking our for some thing that i could remove. One thing I did that is probably worth 20lbs is the heat shielding between the engine and firewall. With the engine out it is easy to pull off sheets of that stuff. Even so being 50lbs over weight is not going to slow you down much right off the bat. There is much more time in driver and even aligment, tire pressures, etc that in the 50lbs. Once you get all of those "set" then you look for that 50lbs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pixrken Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 Well after the 88's are too fast debate... the late cars are too heavy debate picks up steam. Actually I'm not trying to start a debate on this. There is no debate, the 2600 lbs min. weight is set. You add ballast or remove parts. I'm asking more of a 50,000ft view of why the later cars start off heavier from the factory. With the aluminum control arms you would think the later cars should be lighter. I don't care if I'm 300 lbs over, I just want to go out and play Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
944-Spec#94 Posted July 27, 2005 Author Share Posted July 27, 2005 Some folks have been using the "I have late car and can't get down to weight so we shoud raise the min weight for all." excuse since we started this. 95% of the time they get weight out if they look a little more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Autosport944 Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 From my experience, and it is extensive in this area. The early cars, pre-85.5 are about 100 lbs lighter than the later cars. We have now built 9 of these cars. We have used 1 '83, 4, '84's, 3- '86's, and 1-'87. All cars have gone through the exact same procedure with the removal of all of the same parts. We remove all the interior tar and insulation. Just as an example, my '84 comes out at 2376 dry. with me in the car and a 1/4 tank of gas, the car hit the scales at 2601 with no ballast. Eric Sorensen read the scale at the track! The '87 we built under the same program weighs 2480. I have no explanation for it. But the same has been true for all of the newer cars. On the other hand, several people have driven our 1986 "poster child" 944GSR car owned by Bill Ridino. They have all said that his car feels like it has more power and torque than any 944 they have driven. This car has an '84 block assembled by John Anderson. The head was shaved ever so slightly for trueness and final assembly was done by Rick White. That car is also a little heavy at 2462lbs. I gave up trying to figure out where to pull the weight from. Glen Uslan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeanutinCA Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 I think he has a valid point though Joe. People with later cars seem to have been saying it was harder to 'get down to' weight. Whereas earlier cars got there with ease and even have items left in, like yourself. The answer may be as simple as, yes Ken, it does appear later cars are maybe heavier? Why? Not sure. I personally had a scale issue, showing myself 60#'s heavier than other scales. I at weight now and all I have not down is the headlights and motor. Everything else is done. Oh no, I have the inside door metal. Otherwise, I'm cut, stripped, removed to the bone! P.D. p.s. I didn't know anyone was looking to lower min weight? Man, I'd rally to lower it even further but that would cost money! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Autosport944 Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 By the way... my '84 still has the headlights, motors, full size battery and a passenger seat! glen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
944-Spec#94 Posted July 27, 2005 Author Share Posted July 27, 2005 Well I think Jim Mark's car is pretty light. Seems that when the previous owner ran the car here in Az he never complained about it being heavy. Glen, I have not seen 100 lbs a the number, but also have heard many many stories. My 944-spec I estimated at 2390 lbs or so. This given 2625 on the scales with 40 lbs of barbell weights for ballast, 30lbs stock passenger's seat and my 160 lbs plus 5lbs for suit, helmet ext. That is with some more weight I know I could take out. Glenn Gormely's 86 #44 car is like 2700 with him in the car. I really don't know why the chassis weight much different. We all run the same block and tranny. I run steel arms front and the 86 aluminum arms in the rear. We all run stock brakes too. Dylan, I personally would love to cut min weight to 2550 so I can pull my ballast, but clearly that won't be good for those still working torwards 2600lbs. I have not heard folks asking to LOWER the min weight. Some folks I do think would like to raise the min weight some. Really I think 2600 is good compromize since some folks need to ballast to make it and other are bit heavy. 2600 splits the difference. If I had my way (of course I don't) I would love to make these cars even faster by weight reduction. Things like fiberglass hood, lexan hatch, and FG front fenders. Probably keep the rear qtrs stock and probably doors. May be this stuff could take off 150 lbs more from the car and we could run at 2450 with driver. Cars would be nicely faster and probably better balacned as they get a tiny bit nose heavy when stripped. Ahh well a really nice idea, but it would cost $$$ and just make it harder for folks to get in the series. Really going 1-2 seconds faster is not worth it if you are the only cars out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
944-Spec#94 Posted July 27, 2005 Author Share Posted July 27, 2005 By the way... my '84 still has the headlights, motors, full size battery and a passenger seat! glen So 2376 with headlights, battery & pass seat. Do you have the door glass and window motors out? I figured mine at 2390 with no head lights, stock battery, just the driver's seat, and functional power windows. If I pull 20lbs for pass seat (assuming it is race seat with mounting) then you would be 2355? Are the door glass and motors worth 40lbs you think? I leave my car outside so I have always keep the glass, motors and stock panels in place to seal off the car. Does your 84 have power or manual steering? I run a manual rack on mine, with factory a/c delete and have a stock muffler (no cat though). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packfill Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 Joe, I had to come in early during Qualifying on Saturday because my car was sputtering....out of fuel. This I took as a opportunity to see how much my car weighed bone dry.... Survey said? 2602!! This was a great feeling, because it means as long as my car is running.... I am at weight. I think I still have the firewall insulation, but also have a cromoly cage..it is 20-30lbs lighter than a bolt in and as much as 50lbs lighter than a steel weld in. I also weigh 180lbs.......(oink,oink) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
944-Spec#94 Posted July 27, 2005 Author Share Posted July 27, 2005 Joe, I had to come in early during Qualifying on Saturday because my car was sputtering....out of fuel. This I took as a opportunity to see how much my car weighed bone dry.... Survey said? 2602!! This was a great feeling, because it means as long as my car is running.... I am at weight. Well you are down right close. I like to shoot for 10-25 over just incase the scales are off. Hey a hot day and you could lose 2lbs of body weight combined with scales off 10lbs low fuel and bang.. "Sorry Jim you are 2598 and therefored DQ'ed." I think at CS this year I was 2660 with my ballast and like and 1/8 to 1/4 tank. I probably ran 20lbs heavier than I need to for that race, but really don't want to be 5lbs shy. I guess if I want to play that game well I woudl drain my tank and roll the car on the race scales every track day and remove/add my 10 lbs weights as needed. I used to only run 30lbs ballast the I lost about 8lbs to 152. Then gained it back to 160 again. Still here is data point showing that an 86 can be "light" too. That is why all this talk about late cars being heavy is so hard to confirm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeanutinCA Posted July 28, 2005 Share Posted July 28, 2005 Jim's is a non-sunroofer, that could be a little weight? those shaved handles are a HUGE savings! P.D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
944 Swede Posted July 28, 2005 Share Posted July 28, 2005 My car is a -87 and at the last Willow race I was asked to get on the scale both Sat and Sun. Without me in the car and with about 3/8 fuel the weight is 2440. I know I can easily remove another 25-30 lbs. You do the math In terms of removing the insulation inside the car, use a heatgun, put on some gloves and with a metal scraper the whole interior can be removed in 30 min. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Comeau Posted July 28, 2005 Share Posted July 28, 2005 Yeah, you've got to use a heat gun for those tar mats on the floor and tranny tunnel. In total, that stuff weighs right at 10 lbs. I kept all of it and weighed it in a plastic bag. If you don't remove it or put something over it, it gets soft in the heat and melts to your shoes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeanutinCA Posted July 28, 2005 Share Posted July 28, 2005 ...or put something over it, it gets soft in the heat and melts to your shoes. Which is another way to remove it if you don't have a heat gun. Stick it in the sun and it comes off like budder brudder!!!!! P.D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Comeau Posted July 28, 2005 Share Posted July 28, 2005 And you'll lose 10 lbs of water weight as you sweat your butt off. Use a heat gun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeanutinCA Posted July 28, 2005 Share Posted July 28, 2005 Be a man! Do it under the sun. Don't blame me for skin cancer though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
944 Swede Posted July 28, 2005 Share Posted July 28, 2005 Hey you, Man of the bushes. we have electricity in this country Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeanutinCA Posted July 28, 2005 Share Posted July 28, 2005 Hey you, Man of the bushes. we have electricity in this country Sure, go ahead, waste all of the worlds resources! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packfill Posted July 30, 2005 Share Posted July 30, 2005 Sure, go ahead, waste all of the worlds resources! Am I the only one who finds humor in the fact that a guy with a BMW and Two Porsches, is giving sh*t to someone who wants to use an electric hairdryer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
924sowner Posted August 4, 2005 Share Posted August 4, 2005 lmao, really now. im shrue a race prepped porsche is going to give off a few more emissions then what it takes to run that hair dryer anyway... ive got a little 87 924S that im planning to run with you guys here soon. That is as soon as i get through some driving classes and beginner events and all that... ohh, and of course, get the thing to run more then 300 miles without a problem happening... anyway, ive got all the back removed in my car, but still have the full front half of the interior in it. unfortunatly, no roll cage... and i have no scales near me to tell how much the thing weighs... i live near willow springs if someone knows a place around there where i could get weighed... on the subject of advantages, i would much rather have a lighter car that i would need to put ballast that was down a couple HP then a car i couldnt get down to weight that has more HP... then again, my car is probably overweight and underpowered... haha, ohh well, im getting there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Comeau Posted August 4, 2005 Share Posted August 4, 2005 Wish you could have come out to the last couple events at Willow. Both the NASA racing and the PCA Time Trial were a scream! You can drive my 924S and see where you're headed. It's quite competitive in sprint and endurance racing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
924sowner Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 acctually, i was at an event at willow in early july i believe it was... met Dylan Scott, he was just coming off the big track when i had arrived and we had a good chat. I was supposed to buy some used konis off of him (or was it the other guy that was there... *has terrible memory for names*) but i guess not. ohh well, that was fun, getting to see the humble little 944 throw down some times that would shame some serious sports/super cars.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeanutinCA Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 We met, Dylan, a.k.a. P.Dilly. Jim (other guy) had the Koni's. Maybe I may have some for sale if I were to go to the Bilstein's? P.D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
924sowner Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 Ahh, ok. well now, if my car is ever out of the shop i guess i might see you guys at some events before the year's end. ohh, are there any good, and realitivly inexpensive porsche mechanics you know of that could get my car out of the shop in a couple weeks that are either in the bakersfield or lanecaster/palmdale area? it needs a new clutch, new oil seals, new suspension bushings *oil got on them and softened them up....* fix a one week old rebuilt power steering pump that is leaking and working when it wants to and change my cam timing to where it needs to be... it runs like crap right now, no power above 5200 and a really tinny sound to the exaust instead of the smooth note that im used to hearing... lots of torque off idle though... well, more then usual anyway... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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