Jump to content

HPDE Miata Roll-Bar question


bigmackloud
 Share

Recommended Posts

I'm in the process of looking for a weekend/HPDE car. Toying with the idea of a Miata. Obviously if I can find a car that already has some track mods, that's in my favor, assuming they were properly done.

 

Came across a Miata that has a Hard Dog M2 sport bar (no diagonals) and a hardtop.

 

From what I've read, the rules don't specify having diagonals (they're better I know). Does it seem reasonable that this configuration would be legal for most NASA regions for HPDE? (VIR would be my closest track).

 

Does the hardtop have any bearing on the roll over requirements?

 

Looking down the road, what's required for TT and/or hillclimbs?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

From the CCRs:

11.4.7 Roll Bars

All open cars should have a roll bar installed to help protect the occupant(s) from injury during a roll-over. The

main hoop shall be one continuous piece with smooth Mandrel bends with no evidence of crimping or wall

failure. All welds should be of the highest possible quality, with full penetration [Ref:(15.6.15)]. All cars with roll

bars are required to have adequate roll bar padding per CCR section #15.6.4. In cases where the driver’s head

may come in contact with the roll bar should the seatback fail, a seatback brace is required in conformance with

section #15.6.21. Acceptable roll bars include, but are not limited to, the following:

 

Hard Dog

AC - Ace

D - Deuce (center-braced model only)

AB - M1 Hard Core

TB – M1 Hard Core Hardtop

9B – M2 Hard Core

NB – M2 Hard Core

 

Auto Power

Street Roll Bar

Street-Sport Roll Bar

Race Roll Bar

30

 

The above roll bars are examples only. NASA does not endorse any brand or model and will not be held liable

for any failures of roll bars.

 

Seems like the "hard core" M2 is required. May not be too hard to upgrade the sport model to those specs though if you know or can find out what the differences are (extra diagonals can be added by any competent roll cage shop fairly easily & cheaply)..?

 

I would also double-check with NASA-MA admin to make sure VIR doesn't have any extra requirements beyond the basic levels set forth in the CCRs. Some tracks require a little bit higher level of rollover protection, additional equipment like arm restraints, or whatnot.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hard top isn't structural so it doesn't affect the requirements.

 

You usually still have to pass 'the broomstick test' at VIR.

 

TT goes by HPDE safety/tech rules.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I put a Boss Frog Double Hoop with Rear Diagonals in my daughter's 2000 Miata. It was the only one that had rear diags, great visibility, AND saddle support that met MY safety requirements for on track driving. I highly recommend it.

 

 

-Kevin

Link to comment
Share on other sites

From the CCRs:
11.4.7 Roll Bars

All open cars should have a roll bar installed to help protect the occupant(s) from injury during a roll-over. The

main hoop shall be one continuous piece with smooth Mandrel bends with no evidence of crimping or wall

failure. All welds should be of the highest possible quality, with full penetration [Ref:(15.6.15)]. All cars with roll

bars are required to have adequate roll bar padding per CCR section #15.6.4. In cases where the driver’s head

may come in contact with the roll bar should the seatback fail, a seatback brace is required in conformance with

section #15.6.21. Acceptable roll bars include, but are not limited to, the following:

 

Hard Dog

AC - Ace

D - Deuce (center-braced model only)

AB - M1 Hard Core

TB – M1 Hard Core Hardtop

9B – M2 Hard Core

NB – M2 Hard Core

 

Auto Power

Street Roll Bar

Street-Sport Roll Bar

Race Roll Bar

30

 

The above roll bars are examples only. NASA does not endorse any brand or model and will not be held liable

for any failures of roll bars.

 

Seems like the "hard core" M2 is required. May not be too hard to upgrade the sport model to those specs though if you know or can find out what the differences are (extra diagonals can be added by any competent roll cage shop fairly easily & cheaply)..?

 

I would also double-check with NASA-MA admin to make sure VIR doesn't have any extra requirements beyond the basic levels set forth in the CCRs. Some tracks require a little bit higher level of rollover protection, additional equipment like arm restraints, or whatnot.

 

I believe the rule recommends a roll bar, using the word "should" instead of "shall." The rule then goes on to specify requirements for the roll bar if used, using the phrase "shall be one continuous piece." That seems to agree with the later phrase "All cars with roll bars," implying that there will be cars without them.

 

Does anyone else interpret the rule that way?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Separate from what is in the CCR... there are some convertibles that can be HPDE'd with just the factory rollover protection. Each regional director has a current list from the national office. And I can assure you that the Mazda Miata/MX-5 of any vintage has never been on any version of the list that I have ever seen. Which means it definitely shall (not just "should") have aftermarket rollover protection installed for HPDE usage.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

CCR Page 1 re: should/shall/etc

 

Editorial Note:

The word “should” is used throughout this rulebook; and in order to fully grasp its meaning, the following

explanations have been created. When the word “should” is used, it can be taken to mean that something

should be done in accordance with this book, or the driver can expect the stewards to disallow track time, if they

catch the issue. The reason that it’s stated as “should,” is to add emphasis that it’s really, and ultimately, the

driver’s responsibility. Because Inspectors, Instructors, Flaggers, and Officials in general, are human, it is an

assumed risk of this activity that a mistake can be made. Therefore, the driver is ultimately held responsible for

his or her own safety.

Furthermore, the word “should” also makes an implication of fallibility and/or corrects false expectations. For

example, “the flagger should display a yellow flag,” the yellow flag in question may not be shown because 1) it

relies on the flagger’s judgment, and that can be subjective, and 2) the flagger is human and can make a

mistake. Therefore, if one is not willing to risk their safety because they expect other people to be perfect, then

they cannot participate in NASA.

To sum it up, the word “should” can be construed in the context of these examples:

a) “The driver should have roll cage padding (if they expect to be let on track).”

b) “The official should check for roll cage padding (implying that, even though they do their best, the

Inspectors can miss something).

emphasis added

 

I know first time I flipped through the CCR I thought "dang this is kinda wishy washy language" then someone showed me that first thing that's really easy to miss. Cleared it right up and makes perfect sense!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So would the lack of diagonals cause the vehicle to fail tech inspection? (If purchasing a vehicle w/o a roll bar, I would just get the double diagonals)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Without knowing what exactlty the differences are in the two models it's tough to definitively say. Let's say the sport or whatever doesn't have the diagonals AND is thinner tubing or something. Adding diagonals back in wouldn't bring it up to the same specs if that was the case. BUT if they are the same size tubings and the difference is the diagonals then that would be one that was easy to get fixed.

 

I wish I knew Miata products better to be able to know for sure to help you, sorry!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Sport is 1.5" tubing and the Hardcore is 1.75" tubing. There was a weight requirement that stipulated above a certain weight the 1.75" was required and below that threshold the 1.5" was legal. Most Miatas that weren't Mazdaspeed turbo cars that were totally loaded down with options and bracing would be light enough to get by with the Sport. I haven't been back through the CCR in a few years. From my previous readings, the requirement was for at least one diagonal off of the main hoop.

 

I guess I will need to read the current version of the CCR.

 

EDIT: I read the current CCR and it makes no mention of tubing diameter, thickness, diagonals, etc. Additionally, they say that the list is just suggested models and that others might do. So the vague answer is still vague. It essentially says if tech says you are good to go, then you are good to go, and if they say no you are out of luck.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sure, I agree whole heartedly. But in this scenario I was looking at a used miata with a roll bar already installed. If the bar would have to be replaced or modified, then it adds less value to the vehicle.

 

I'm surprised the rule book isn't more specific.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sure, I agree whole heartedly. But in this scenario I was looking at a used miata with a roll bar already installed. If the bar would have to be replaced or modified, then it adds less value to the vehicle.

Gotcha. Totally get that.

 

I'm surprised the rule book isn't more specific.

I think the rulebook is so vague with some HPDE/TT safety stuff because it was written with possible post-incident legal ramifications in mind...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...