National Staff Greg G. Posted December 4, 2013 National Staff Share Posted December 4, 2013 Huh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jim P. Posted December 4, 2013 Members Share Posted December 4, 2013 Well, those that have modifications to their frames that are not legal currently in ST become "non-Production" cars in ST in 2104. That's a heck of a waiting period. Greg can be slow... (have you seen him drive?!?!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted December 4, 2013 National Staff Share Posted December 4, 2013 That means a lot coming from a guy who doesn't know the difference between his package and dog food. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nascarracer288 Posted December 4, 2013 Share Posted December 4, 2013 Greg...I have two questions. If you are considering combining ST and STR, does that also mean that former STR2 cars will now be allowed to run in ST2, or is this just limited to STR1 and ST1? And, in your decision making, will there be limits to the amount of aero allowed before there is a penalty, or is aero unlimited? Thanks..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted December 5, 2013 Share Posted December 5, 2013 The only difference in STR1,2,3 is the ratio you needed to hit. Why would an STR2 car ever be excluded because their class went away? Do the math, see where it falls. If they want to be competitive, tweak the car to be close to the limit of one of the ratios... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nascarracer288 Posted December 5, 2013 Share Posted December 5, 2013 The only difference in STR1,2,3 is the ratio you needed to hit. Why would an STR2 car ever be excluded because their class went away? Do the math, see where it falls. If they want to be competitive, tweak the car to be close to the limit of one of the ratios... You are answering the obvious question. However, since Nasa did away with STR2 last year, there must be a reason why they did that. So the question is, will STR2 cars be recognized again, unlike last year. I own a car that would have been an STR2 car last year but had to run in STR1. If STR2 cars will be recognized again by combining ST and STR, will STR2 cars be allowed to run in ST2, or will I still be stuck in STR1? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted December 5, 2013 Share Posted December 5, 2013 I suspect with this mod factor correction for STR type cars that you could fit into any ST class that you can make the #s work for. We'll see when National lets Greg publish the ruleset though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nascarracer288 Posted December 5, 2013 Share Posted December 5, 2013 Good, I'm hoping that's the case for STR2 cars. I know that many of them sat on the sidelines last year so it would be nice to see them appear again if they can run in ST2. But, this "Mod factor correction" for STR has me worried a little. I'm hoping that the correction factor will be more or less on a car-by-car basis and not a blanket penalty just because the car has a tube frame. I can see where many current production-based cars with modern aero and suspension packages could have a distinct advantage when extensive alterations are done to the chassis and body (The Pfadt Corvette, for example), but some of us who have tube frame cars (ex-Nascar's and trucks with no aero) would have that same penalty levied against us when we are actually at a disadvantage to begin with when compared to an ST Corvette or Viper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bnjmn Posted December 5, 2013 Share Posted December 5, 2013 Nothing is stopping you from improving what you think are the shortcomings of a tube frame car. If some part of your car is not competitive, give it attention. The rules are (and my guess is that they will be) drafted assuming you will do so, and they need to be, because even though you might not choose to revise your car, someone else in STR (or ST for that matter) may/will develop their car as the rules allow. On the other hand.... I proposed that we use a tailored mod factor for cars that competed under an alternate rule set in a recognized series and are currently prepped within that rule set, but I don't think that got a warm reception. I think it would make sense as a sizable potential source of new STR participants would be cars that compete in the various lower Trans-Am classes. You could instead establish a mod factor for cars prepped to TA2, SPO etc rules (this is on the assumption that those rule sets are relatively straightforward, but I have not reviewed them). There is plenty of data on those cars as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhoward1 Posted December 5, 2013 Share Posted December 5, 2013 Nothing is stopping you from improving what you think are the shortcomings of a tube frame car.If some part of your car is not competitive, give it attention. The rules are (and my guess is that they will be) drafted assuming you will do so, and they need to be, because even though you might not choose to revise your car, someone else in STR (or ST for that matter) may/will develop their car as the rules allow. On the other hand.... I proposed that we use a tailored mod factor for cars that competed under an alternate rule set in a recognized series and are currently prepped within that rule set, but I don't think that got a warm reception. I think it would make sense as a sizable potential source of new STR participants would be cars that compete in the various lower Trans-Am classes. You could instead establish a mod factor for cars prepped to TA2, SPO etc rules (this is on the assumption that those rule sets are relatively straightforward, but I have not reviewed them). There is plenty of data on those cars as well. There are even sub-sets with NASA as well that have HP/TQ limits that don't fit well in ST2, but if they could run a bit lighter (or heavier) so they could run either class depending on the weekends participation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nascarracer288 Posted December 5, 2013 Share Posted December 5, 2013 As it sits now, I actually think that my cars are reasonably competitive with 98% of the ST and STR cars out there, even with archaic suspension and no aero. If the rules stood where they are with both ST and STR getting the same penalties, I'm fine with that and I enjoy the challenge, and I think that most of the STR drivers are too as long as the playing field is reasonably level. But, to make a blanket penalty to adjust the rules just for that mythical STR car (which no one has yet to build) and punish the other more conventional STR cars which are the majority of the class doesn't make sense. It's easy to say "improve the shortcomings" of a tube frame car, and I have made many improvements, but what I have is what I have. I can only improve so much with a solid rear axle and 70's era suspension geometry up front. I don't have the luxury of calling up Pfadt or LG and ordering finely tuned and tested suspension parts off the shelf like the Corvette guys do. Nor is my car going to ever be equal to an "off the showroom floor" Viper ACR no matter what I do to it. However, if it means that I'm being left behind because I have hit a ceiling on mods that I can do to my cars, then I'll have no choice but to go out and build that mythical STR car and then I'll enjoy watching the ST Corvette and Viper drivers start to complain and we'll watch this debate start all over again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.R. Smith Posted December 5, 2013 Author Share Posted December 5, 2013 As it sits now, I actually think that my cars are reasonably competitive with 98% of the ST and STR cars out there, even with archaic suspension and no aero. If the rules stood where they are with both ST and STR getting the same penalties, I'm fine with that and I enjoy the challenge, and I think that most of the STR drivers are too as long as the playing field is reasonably level. But, to make a blanket penalty to adjust the rules just for that mythical STR car (which no one has yet to build) and punish the other more conventional STR cars which are the majority of the class doesn't make sense. It's easy to say "improve the shortcomings" of a tube frame car, and I have made many improvements, but what I have is what I have. I can only improve so much with a solid rear axle and 70's era suspension geometry up front. I don't have the luxury of calling up Pfadt or LG and ordering finely tuned and tested suspension parts off the shelf like the Corvette guys do. Nor is my car going to ever be equal to an "off the showroom floor" Viper ACR no matter what I do to it. However, if it means that I'm being left behind because I have hit a ceiling on mods that I can do to my cars, then I'll have no choice but to go out and build that mythical STR car and then I'll enjoy watching the ST Corvette and Viper drivers start to complain and we'll watch this debate start all over again! Bob, I have some spare Corvette suspension parts and a spare wing. We can take your Nascar car and put on independent rear suspension and change the front control arms and a Corvette wing and we can call it a C8R. That way you can have a tube frame car with all the trick Corvette stuff in a Nascar body. You may have to put a Chevrolet emblem on it. J.R. P.S. - I will not complain. posting.php?mode=reply&f=18&t=107351# Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nascarracer288 Posted December 6, 2013 Share Posted December 6, 2013 Bob, I have some spare Corvette suspension parts and a spare wing. We can take your Nascar car and put on independent rear suspension and change the front control arms and a Corvette wing and we can call it a C8R. That way you can have a tube frame car with all the trick Corvette stuff in a Nascar body. You may have to put a Chevrolet emblem on it. J.R. Or....I could just buy your car and cut the roof off of it so I'll fit and make it a roadster! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted December 6, 2013 National Staff Share Posted December 6, 2013 Yes, the 8.0:1 ratio is back open to "Non-Production" cars, because we will just have the three ST classes. The Mod Factor for these vehicles is unlikely to be high enough for the "mythical" car, but it should be enough to help equalize "dream" cars (see other thread ), and others that want to use the "Non-Production Vehicle" Modification Factor to avoid the ST frame, floor, etc. limitations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrc24x Posted December 7, 2013 Share Posted December 7, 2013 Will the starting point for an "old" STR2 car be 8.0 or 8.5 (Aero penalty)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted December 8, 2013 National Staff Share Posted December 8, 2013 Will the starting point for an "old" STR2 car be 8.0 or 8.5 (Aero penalty)? Matt, there is no aero Mod Factor in ST2, still only in ST3. Yes, there is a Non-Production vehicle Mod Factor. Rules will be out soon--I don't want folks getting confused, so we just need to wait a bit longer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrc24x Posted December 8, 2013 Share Posted December 8, 2013 Will the starting point for an "old" STR2 car be 8.0 or 8.5 (Aero penalty)? Matt, there is no aero Mod Factor in ST2, still only in ST3. Yes, there is a Non-Production vehicle Mod Factor. Rules will be out soon--I don't want folks getting confused, so we just need to wait a bit longer. My bad. Thanks Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemming Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 I'm guessing that we will have final decisions by the end of next week, possibly with the 2014 Rules posted. That should have been yesterday Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob-e Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 I also posted this in PT. I'd like to see a ST4 at say around 11:1 to catch PTC and PTB cars. Car counts are Nationally dismal. Something has to change here imo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted December 13, 2013 National Staff Share Posted December 13, 2013 Rules are posted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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