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Suggested 2014 changes to ST classes


J.R. Smith

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I'm not opposed to tube frame as long as they are fairly regulated......I don't want an all out Australian V8 Supercar (with 4000 wings and winglets) showing up and running the same power-to-weight as we do.

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Gets too complex to start limiting aero for certain cars. A fully prepped C5 Corvette can run with a tube chassis cup car all day long no issue. It's this mystical custom tube chassis car that they're planning against. Or maybe somebody buying a ex Rolex or ALMS vette and stuffing a stock LS6 in it?

 

Not to sidetrack the main thread, but no Rolex or ALMS Corvette I've ever seen would EVER fit the ST rules based on frame/floor/exhaust, etc mods

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Not to sidetrack the main thread, but no Rolex or ALMS Corvette I've ever seen would EVER fit the ST rules based on frame/floor/exhaust, etc mods

 

Right - so I think the concern is that suddenly being put in a class with them will cause some issues.

So, you could have an LMPC car enter STR1 (with a mixed class, competing against an ST1 car), which would be tough to compete against. So you could whack MR cars with full aero with a modifier of like 2.0. Or else a Radical or Diasio (or an ex-WC R8 etc) shows up that slots into the "new" ST2. The problem is, I think, that there is not much data on what those cars are like at lower power levels and how to equalize them.

But these are, up to this point, largely (totally?) theoretical concerns. So instead of maintaining the status quo, just make those cars get a mod factor ruling before racing (so nobody's weekend is completely ruined if one of these shows up out of the blue in the "new" ST1/2/3) and then adjust from there.

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I'm not opposed to tube frame as long as they are fairly regulated......I don't want an all out Australian V8 Supercar (with 4000 wings and winglets) showing up and running the same power-to-weight as we do.

Why not? What does that aero have to do with the tube chassis? We can add 4000 wings and winglets to our Corvettes if we wanted to. I'd rather have them show up and give them chase vs. running around with one or maybe two other cars at this point.

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I would be all for combining ST and STR but I don't think that is going to solve the car count issue. There are so few STR cars to begin with I probably wouldn't even notice an increase in my region. I think we are wasting our time lobbying for it, if they combine them great, if not who cares because it's not going to make a significant difference anyway.

 

What we should be lobbying for and what would solve the car count issue is combining ST and GTS. When building a car for either class it's basically the same approach just different pw/wt targets. It doesn't make much sense to have nearly identical classes where one is German and one is not. The German cars already have a place to compete with other Germans in PCA or BMWCCA. Not sure which came first but I'm sure the GTS class was set up to have easy crossover between the clubs.

 

I would be all for adjusting my car to align with the current GTS rules.

 

Are there any GTS drivers who would be against increasing car counts in their class by opening up the rules to allow non-German cars?

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I would be all for combining ST and STR but I don't think that is going to solve the car count issue. There are so few STR cars to begin with I probably wouldn't even notice an increase in my region. I think we are wasting our time lobbying for it, if they combine them great, if not who cares because it's not going to make a significant difference anyway.

 

What we should be lobbying for and what would solve the car count issue is combining ST and GTS. When building a car for either class it's basically the same approach just different pw/wt targets. It doesn't make much sense to have nearly identical classes where one is German and one is not. The German cars already have a place to compete with other Germans in PCA or BMWCCA. Not sure which came first but I'm sure the GTS class was set up to have easy crossover between the clubs.

 

I would be all for adjusting my car to align with the current GTS rules.

 

Are there any GTS drivers who would be against increasing car counts in their class by opening up the rules to allow non-German cars?

I'm all for both, but STR/ST combination is the first step. There may not be many STR cars in your region, but I know of a few people buying ASA stock cars for HPDE toys who will start climbing the ladder toward racing. Not much fun to move forward if you don't have a clear home for the car. Combining ST/STR will start bringing more folks out of the woodwork and through the system toward racing.

 

I also agree that aligning with GTS rules is fine by me... there's no reason to have them separate. I'm also curious what GTS guys think about it. BRB... going to bug GTS guys.

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I just think a factory designed race car that has extensive Wind Tunnel testing has a unique advantage over me and you. Sure there is a Wind Tunnel down the road from me, but I'd rather spend $5000 on parts than spend 30minutes in the tunnel.

 

However, if push comes to shove, I'd take larger fields over "perfect" rules!!

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Currently there are "no" fields in NASA-MA. Back in 2007-2009 there used to be 8-10 cars in ST-2 every weekend. Something needs to be done to give ST cars a home to race.

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Currently there are "no" STfields in NASA-MA. Back in 2007-2009 there used to be 8-10 cars in ST-2 every weekend. Something needs to be done to give ST cars a home to race.

 

Corrected that for you

 

So get ST guys to build cars and race! Corvettes are cheap, no? Maybe you need to volunteer to be the ST director and start drumming up more interest.

 

Im not sure exactly how I feel about this as a GTS Official. Personally, I don't think Id have much of an issue. We are currently contemplating an allowance for non-German motors in our cars. That's getting some flack already in regards to hurting the identity.

 

You also cant just say "we have German cars to race in PCA/BMWCCA". Purpose built GTS cars would get destroyed via classing in either of those other series.

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This makes a lot of sense. What doesn't make a lot of sense is how the ST rules are written and interpreted. There is no performance advantage for an E36 BMW chassis to tie the rollcage into the rear subframe. It is re-enforcing a known weak area of the car and in the long run saves money.

 

I would love to run in ST3 if some changes were made and I fully agree the racing would get better.

 

-Tony Colicchio

2013 GTS-3 National Champion

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Currently there are "no" fields in NASA-MA. Back in 2007-2009 there used to be 8-10 cars in ST-2 every weekend. Something needs to be done to give ST cars a home to race.

 

Yea, it used to be Wally, Ryan, Paul Kaiser, Mac, Tony and me as a base.

 

Wally went to Doogie Howser school, Ryan quit, Tony got a Panoz so he's classed out, Mac went historic racing, and I'm just lazier than hell. I have no idea where Paul is.

 

Doesn't seem like others aren't picking up the mantle and running.

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Doesn't seem like others aren't picking up the mantle and running.

It's hard to justify paying $360 in entry fee and then using up consumables with no chance at a contingency when you can instruct and TT for $0. I'd rather race, but it just hasn't made any sense economically of late. The instructing/TT/Hoosier gig was up in 2012 when they changed the contingency rules anyway.

 

I think the "regulars" going their separate ways along with the economy going the wrong way really took the wind out of ST's sails. I witnessed it first hand. That's why I beat the "if you build it, they will come..." drum. If you can build momentum/excitement people will get off the fence and come out, they'll get off the fence and buy that < $15k C5 and start building a car.

 

I said it before... after missing this whole season due to projects/mechanical I'm running a full season of ST3 and Nationals if it's reasonably close for '14.

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Doesn't seem like others aren't picking up the mantle and running.

It's hard to justify paying $360 in entry fee and then using up consumables with no chance at a contingency when you can instruct and TT for $0. I'd rather race, but it just hasn't made any sense economically of late. The instructing/TT/Hoosier gig was up in 2012 when they changed the contingency rules anyway.

 

I think the "regulars" going their separate ways along with the economy going the wrong way really took the wind out of ST's sails. I witnessed it first hand. That's why I beat the "if you build it, they will come..." drum. If you can build momentum/excitement people will get off the fence and come out, they'll get off the fence and buy that < $15k C5 and start building a car.

 

I said it before... after missing this whole season due to projects/mechanical I'm running a full season of ST3 and Nationals if it's reasonably close for '14.

 

We ran for a couple of years with no contingency for tires. We just raced for the fun of it. It was expensive, but that was offset by the overdose of adrenalin racing generated.

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Doesn't seem like others aren't picking up the mantle and running.

It's hard to justify paying $360 in entry fee and then using up consumables with no chance at a contingency when you can instruct and TT for $0. I'd rather race, but it just hasn't made any sense economically of late. The instructing/TT/Hoosier gig was up in 2012 when they changed the contingency rules anyway.

 

I think the "regulars" going their separate ways along with the economy going the wrong way really took the wind out of ST's sails. I witnessed it first hand. That's why I beat the "if you build it, they will come..." drum. If you can build momentum/excitement people will get off the fence and come out, they'll get off the fence and buy that < $15k C5 and start building a car.

 

I said it before... after missing this whole season due to projects/mechanical I'm running a full season of ST3 and Nationals if it's reasonably close for '14.

 

We ran for a couple of years with no contingency for tires. We just raced for the fun of it. It was expensive, but that was offset by the overdose of adrenalin racing generated.

But you had people to race against. Most of the time for me it's:

 

A. TT with enough cars to get a contingency and pay $0 to do it.

 

B. Race against one or two other cars max, no contingency, pay to do it.

 

I'm to the point where I want to race.

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It's hard to justify paying $360 in entry fee and then using up consumables with no chance at a contingency when you can instruct and TT for $0. I'd rather race, but it just hasn't made any sense economically of late. The instructing/TT/Hoosier gig was up in 2012 when they changed the contingency rules anyway.

 

I think the "regulars" going their separate ways along with the economy going the wrong way really took the wind out of ST's sails. I witnessed it first hand. That's why I beat the "if you build it, they will come..." drum. If you can build momentum/excitement people will get off the fence and come out, they'll get off the fence and buy that < $15k C5 and start building a car.

 

I said it before... after missing this whole season due to projects/mechanical I'm running a full season of ST3 and Nationals if it's reasonably close for '14.

 

We ran for a couple of years with no contingency for tires. We just raced for the fun of it. It was expensive, but that was offset by the overdose of adrenalin racing generated.

But you had people to race against. Most of the time for me it's:

 

A. TT with enough cars to get a contingency and pay $0 to do it.

 

B. Race against one or two other cars max, no contingency, pay to do it.

 

I'm to the point where I want to race.

 

Oh, I understand. When I go to the track now I don't know very many people. It's hard to get motivated.

 

We used to have the predictable gang and that made it fun and something to really look forward to. The classes are fragmented now so it's hard to build those relationships we developed when there was basically one class, ST2.

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In Great Lakes we had the ST/STR split separate some great fields. The Viper Comp Coupes went to STR1 along with a Mustang with a tunnel mod. So....some of the ST1 cars would move to STR1 just for the competition.

Slap a mod factor on the "R" mods and enlarge all the classes.

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Doesn't seem like others aren't picking up the mantle and running.

It's hard to justify paying $360 in entry fee and then using up consumables with no chance at a contingency when you can instruct and TT for $0. I'd rather race, but it just hasn't made any sense economically of late. The instructing/TT/Hoosier gig was up in 2012 when they changed the contingency rules anyway.

 

I think the "regulars" going their separate ways along with the economy going the wrong way really took the wind out of ST's sails. I witnessed it first hand. That's why I beat the "if you build it, they will come..." drum. If you can build momentum/excitement people will get off the fence and come out, they'll get off the fence and buy that < $15k C5 and start building a car.

 

I said it before... after missing this whole season due to projects/mechanical I'm running a full season of ST3 and Nationals if it's reasonably close for '14.

 

We ran for a couple of years with no contingency for tires. We just raced for the fun of it. It was expensive, but that was offset by the overdose of adrenalin racing generated.

 

I agree with Jody. We had no contingency for a few years and it was all about having a good time. I have no skin in the game now, but the str classes need to be folded back into ST. Also, open the rules again. If someone wants to build a $300k+ car and win so be it, but I doubt those spending that type of money will be racing NASA STx. The whole point is grassroots racing and being creative.

 

The gts suggestion is ok, but it would be better to leave something that works alone and focus on creating interest in ST and a better rule set.

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Why stop with STR, fold all GTS and AI-related classes into ST as well. Five ST classes for everyone. It would make for GREAT racing.

 

+1 - make 5 ST classes that match the HP:WT of GTS so that the German cars can crossover into ST when there aren't many GTS cars in a class in a weekend.

 

-Jim

http://www.wildhorsesracing.com/

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Why stop with STR, fold all GTS and AI-related classes into ST as well. Five ST classes for everyone. It would make for GREAT racing.

 

+1 - make 5 ST classes that match the HP:WT of GTS so that the German cars can crossover into ST when there aren't many GTS cars in a class in a weekend.

 

-Jim

http://www.wildhorsesracing.com/

 

 

 

AAAANNNDDDDD you forgot AI-related classes.

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Currently there are "no" fields in NASA-MA. Back in 2007-2009 there used to be 8-10 cars in ST-2 every weekend. Something needs to be done to give ST cars a home to race.

 

Yea, it used to be Wally, Ryan, Paul Kaiser, Mac, Tony and me as a base.

 

Wally went to Doogie Howser school, Ryan quit, Tony got a Panoz so he's classed out, Mac went historic racing, and I'm just lazier than hell. I have no idea where Paul is.

 

Doesn't seem like others aren't picking up the mantle and running.

 

I've picked the mantle due to guys like Wally and the rest of the ST base. At least before he got all smart and stuff. Hi Wally!

 

Problem is, as soon as I committed and got my license, the ST field sputtered. With an LS swapped BMW (I know, bad choice), I've got no where to go. I'd jump into GTS if they'd let me just for the thrill of racing with bigger car counts.

 

I'd love contingency's too to offset some of the costs but I'm in it for the competition and race craft ultimately.

 

Unless GTS changes their mind, let's do what it takes to get ST amped up again.

 

John

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I am very happy with the current ST2 rule set. While it works very well for the C5 and C6 Corvettes we also saw Lotus, Aston Martin, Porsche and BMW successfully campagined in the class. Of course I would like to see the car counts grow and I would like to see class consolidation, this sport is way too fragmented diluting the competiion.

 

My opinions are;

 

ST1: reduce power to 6:1, allowing crate motor power to run the class, and combine it with STR1

 

ST2 leave it alone

 

ST3 and STR3 combine them.

 

And roll in some of the other classes such as GTS with just minor rules changes.

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