DISCUSSION CLOSED: Add more mod factors for various tires

[JSG1901]

Type

Modification to an existing rule

 

Existing rule section (if applicable)

Classification /4

 

power to weight ratios based on tires.

 

Proposed change

Just as in Time trials and super touring add a correction factor for tires such as Hoosier A6, BFG R1s, and Hankook c91.

 

adding half the difference in correction from dot to non-dot so gts3 for example

 

non dot 12:1

 

dot w/ a6, r1s, c91 11.5:1

 

all other dot tires 11:1

 

Reason

Like all of my proposals this is geared at increasing entries. Allowing people with out the tire budget to remain competitive. On top of the the performance gap between an A6 and R6 is more then a second a lap.

 

Proposed new wording

in chart form...

 

Dot approved R- compound tires: 6.6, 8.8, 11.0, 14.5, 18.5

 

Dot approved auto cross and sprint tires: 6.9, 8.75, 11.5, 15.25, 19.25

 

Non- dot: 7.2, 9.0, 12.0, 16.0, 20.0

[Luke P.]

For

 

This is a good idea. TT/PT break up the R-comps as there is an advantage considered there. I agreed with it when I ran TT and I agree with it now.

[UKRBMW]

Against - let's not restrict our open class. In the end a lot of the current tires are extremely similar - Hoosier and BFG are likely the most common given contingency, so what's the point anyway.

 

However, getting mod factors for different width would be interesting.

Edited October 15, 2013 by Guest

[hamflex]

I am for this, the time difference between r6 and a6 is substantial enough. Plus not everyone can afford new tires every race to hang with some of the front running guys on a6 or r1s every weekend. I think this potentially could add more entrants to the class and increase car counts.

 

As said above TT does it and it works, and its not really restricting the open rules of GTS.

[J Smith]

Against. Let's keep it simple.

[mikew968]

Against...are we going to penalize a new R6 vs an older R6?

[hamflex]

Against...are we going to penalize a new R6 vs an older R6?

 

No, R6 vs A6

[911.racer]

Against. Need to keep the rules simple.

 

Ed

[hamflex]

Against. Need to keep the rules simple.

 

Ed

 

 

How is this not simple? Just curious,

 

non dot is faster then an A6 / R1s, so they are not in the same classification per the current rules. Well an A6 / R1s is faster then a R6 / R1, but they ARE in the same classification, why class in the same?

 

What this is doing is helping increase the driver entries. Right now people are winning on A6 tires, at least in my region they are. Well after the same front running car continues to win and the mid and back markers decide not to keep buying new tires every week and realize they cant be anywhere near competitive on a cycled r6 or r1 they just stop coming. We went from 10 to 13 cars a weekend in gts3 to 4 maybe 5. So right there now no one wins tires, the cahnge is not huge but just enough to hopefully bring back some of the competition.

[bmwjoon]

Against.

[JoeMag]

Against.

[Brad Waite]

I vote no.Tires perform very differently depending upon conditions, race length etc. To say an A6 always has an advantage over an R6 for example, is simply not correct.

[flink]

I usually run a6's, occasionally r6's. The a6 is good for the first few laps but then drops off - I'd guess the crossover is at about lap 3 to 5, depending very much on ambient temperatures and cloud cover. I *think* that on net, the a6 is better in the cooler months but it's a pretty close thing. a6 is of course better in qual.

 

But it seems pretty pointless to be micromanaging the tire compounds while permitting a guy to slap 345mm tires on his mini!

 

So I'd say "no, this is GTS".

[jvanhouten]

Exactly as Brad said. Against.

 

In addition, how are we going to get accurate tire data to come up with the various factors?

 

I vote no.Tires perform very differently depending upon conditions, race length etc. To say an A6 always has an advantage over an R6 for example, is simply not correct.

[Zach H.]

Exactly as Brad said. Against.

 

In addition, how are we going to get accurate tire data to come up with the various factors?

 

I vote no.Tires perform very differently depending upon conditions, race length etc. To say an A6 always has an advantage over an R6 for example, is simply not correct.

 

THIS^

 

NO

[KTL]

Here's another justification for NO.

 

If you lump A6 and R1-S and Hankook C71 together, I think it's saying those all behave the same and they don't. Sure, they all may have the increased grip for faster early lap times. But for how long? I know from personal experience that the R1-S doesn't have that fall off mentioned like the A6. I raced it in hellacious hot conditions July 2012 and it stayed alive for the whole 40 min. sprint race. In the first 8 laps, 6 were within 0.1 of each other. By race end I was still within 1/2 a second of my fast lap I believe. I never felt like the tire "went off." I was shocked they didn't give up on me.

 

Just to clarify the worry about GTS3 decline, it's an economical thing for a few guys. I blowed my engine (again) and wifey's kitchen renovation blew the racing line item right off the 2013 budget. Kid #3 in 12/2012 didn't help make more time for me either...... Another guy's business is really slow, so he hasn't been able to race. Another guy sold his racecar, bought another and decided to take the season off to tour the country for some bucket list tracks with his new car. I suspect he'll be back. There's two other guys who would be great GTS'ers (one 3 car, one 4 car) if they'd ever get their 911 racecar projects done. They've passed the point of no return so its either finish the project and come racing or sell it & move on! So the car counts are going to return.

[Eric W.]

Against.

 

Hell, Id go even one step further and say you could run slicks w/ the same ratio, but that's gonna be unpopular.

[cstreit911]

Against.

 

Hell, Id go even one step further and say you could run slicks w/ the same ratio, but that's gonna be unpopular.

 

Yes it would. Dont want to have to reset the car again!

[doclouns]

Against.

 

Hell, Id go even one step further and say you could run slicks w/ the same ratio, but that's gonna be unpopular.

 

That would be nice, only one type of tires in the garage then

 

Against the proposal.....

[scottbm3]

Against

 

 

 

 

 

-Scott B.

[llis]

I'm against this, unless there are actual metrics upon which the weight ratios are based. Are there, or were these numbers just roughed out based on gut feeling?

[RJ's325ITS]

I VOTE NO!

 

Key elements why no:

 

Cheap tires in a sense make better drivers bc they develop car control skills! Thus belong in HPDE or TT.

 

Full tread tires tent to be cheaper than a DOT comp tires for a reason, they are cheaper because they compromise in certain aspects thus making them a slower tire.

 

If I want to run slower, cheaper I will do it safely in TT, not in a wheel to wheel environment.

 

I can only imagine drivers cooking their summer street tire in 4 laps and then running into someone else, sliding around, our fields will shave pretty quick and only the ones with thru car control skills will race again.

 

GTS will lower it’s standards by allowing cars to be faster in these full tread/non comp tires.

[cash7c3]

Against

[Luke P.]

I VOTE NO!

 

Key elements why no:

 

Cheap tires in a sense make better drivers bc they develop car control skills! Thus belong in HPDE or TT.

 

Full tread tires tent to be cheaper than a DOT comp tires for a reason, they are cheaper because they compromise in certain aspects thus making them a slower tire.

 

If I want to run slower, cheaper I will do it safely in TT, not in a wheel to wheel environment.

 

I can only imagine drivers cooking their summer street tire in 4 laps and then running into someone else, sliding around, our fields will shave pretty quick and only the ones with thru car control skills will race again.

 

GTS will lower it’s standards by allowing cars to be faster in these full tread/non comp tires.

 

If you review the proposal, it was intended to separate the autocross grade of race tires (Hoosier A6 & similar) from the standard track rcomps (Hoosier R6 & similar.) I personally support this as I've seen competitors run the A6 pretty damn quickly, but have to replace them after 1 day or so of use.