kbrew8991 Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 2775lbs / 199whp = 13.945 raw -0.45 weight correction +0.80 for 245 or narrower DOTs = 14.295 adjusted hp/weight, 14.250 is the min for TTD, so barely over 200whp & 2775lbs comes out illegal at 14.225 adjusted. at 205whp you'd better claim a min weight and also be over 2840 for the math to work out for TTD. And if you make pulls at 205 with some regularity I'd leave a bit more of a buffer in case your car blows a touch higher when checked on the official dyno. (2840/205 = 13.854 raw, -0.40 weight +0.80 245s = 14.254 adjusted vs 14.250 limit) I'd start getting concerned about the limits if I was starting to push mid-high 180s and running right spot on min-weight at 2775 with one of these cars, that's not much buffer left and I'd definitely start sweating bullets once you're in 190s, maybe even ballast the car a touch to be sure to be safe on that ratio just in case you happen to blow a touch high on the dyno any given day. Suggesting to not worry until over 205whp isn't accurate when 199 is the bleeding edge maximum at 2775. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emmanuel B. Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 Have I said how great it is having you as a class calculator around? Thanks for the correction. Not sure where I got 205 from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 no worries, also gave me a chance to preach on about leaving a little buffer - nothing worse than winning then loosing in impound I've been told. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlkGt3 Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 no worries, also gave me a chance to preach on about leaving a little buffer - nothing worse than winning then loosing in impound I've been told. All BRZ/FRS need to leave a 10whp buffer just to be safe Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 Make it 30 just to be super duper safe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emmanuel B. Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 Make it 30 just to be super duper safe hmmm!!! that might be veering too far from safe... but would stop the "killing TTD" conversation for sure! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlkGt3 Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 Make it 30 just to be super duper safe I like the way you think. Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubiePig Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 2775lbs / 199whp = 13.945 raw-0.45 weight correction +0.80 for 245 or narrower DOTs = 14.295 adjusted hp/weight, 14.250 is the min for TTD, so barely over 200whp & 2775lbs comes out illegal at 14.225 adjusted. Why -.045? For comp weight it says; 2850 lbs -0.2 2750 lbs -0.25 I probably am missing something. For the +0.80, Since I am currently on 255 RS3's I would be +.3 instead of +.8? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 2014 PT rules (which will have car classing the same as TTB-F) list equal to or less than: 2850 at -0.40, 2800 at -0.45, 2750 at -0.50. I dunno what you're looking at that you're getting half that - doesn't even match the 2014 ST tables. Looking up the other way I'm seeing equal to or less than 3050lbs at -0.20, 3000lbs at -0.25....???!? Your tire credit stuff is also off for PT (and TTB-F by translation). The tables and most credits/takeaways will be worded the same between TT1-3 and TTB-F but the amounts may be different. Beware using 1-3 stuff on a B-F car and vice versa. Non-DOTs and DOTs both do get a +0.4 for "medium" and +0.8 for "skinny" width credit. All Non-DOTs get a takeaway for construction in addtion to all that however (nets to -0.75 for fat non DOTs, -0.35 for medium, +0.05 for skinny versus 0, +0.4, +0.8 for their DOT counterparts). 255 Hankook RS3s would get a +0.4 for 275 or narrower DOTs (I call these "medium" width). At 2775, that'd be 194whp max (raw 14.304, -0.45 weight, +0.40 for medium tires = 14.254 adjusted). Just 5whp difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubiePig Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 I dunno what you're looking at that you're getting half that - doesn't even match the 2014 ST tables. Looking up the other way I'm seeing equal to or less than 3050lbs at -0.20, 3000lbs at -0.25....???!? Your tire credit stuff is also off for PT (and TTB-F by translation). I was looking at the 2013 tt rules PDF I got off the website. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 Ah, you had 2013 TT1-3 weight factors then, not TTB-F stuff. Slam it to page 55 for the TTB-F tables. But really, ignore the 2013 stuff, it's 2014... Honestly I always try and tell people to use the ST stuff or PT stuff for car classing, and use the TT stuff when looking up competition format specific info. Makes it ALOT harder to get wires crossed like this and also at the new year the ST & PT stuff is updated first since TT takes longer due to any format-specific tweaks that may need signed off on and with the car-classing duplicated it takes less time for the PTBs to get through ST and PT, then do TT afterwards. The Excel calculators that I've built that should be posted on NASA's site soon.... those are useful as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aCab Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 The FRS is a very potent car and I think has a very strong future with its current PT/TT classing. I never quite built mine to the rules, but it was still very, very competitive. I was way under the HP cap and way over on weight and did very well with it the few events I ran in it this year. That being said, the car, in my opinion really needs an LSD and needs to be set up a little looser than most people prefer to really be as fast as it can be. 2775 with driver would take some work to get to, but is doable with a streetable car. Mine came in around 2825 with almost no fuel and the rear (back seats, trunk) stripped out. Put a light weight battery in, some lighter wheels than I had, and maybe a CF driveshaft, take out the passenger seat and you should be there. It's true this car is excellent on E85. A tune really wakens it up in the mid range. In testing with E85 and a 3" straight pipe exhaust (header back, no cats), the car was nearly as fast as my s2000. At Gingerman, I ran about 3.4 seconds slower than my best time in my fully prepped TTC S2k. Some of that time can be contributed to me still owing $20k plus at the time on the car. Paid for cars are always fastest! My points spread looked like this: 225 Hoosier A6 (+9) AST 4150s (+3) Springs (+2) E85 Tune (+0) I never could figure out the best spring rate set up and always had a major push in the car. If I could have dialed that out, the car would have been much faster. I let many experience drivers drive the car and they said the car was very loose until you started pushing it harder, then it stabilized out. For me, it always pushed a lot. Likely driving style (fast in, even faster out). SbYoLLjvaFQ Anyways, I think the car is a very good TTD contender. Unfortunatly, after motor troubles, I've decided to give mine up for now. I just can't be a guinea pig for Scion. After 25+ days at the track, it only cost $419 to fix (though warranty covered it, luckily). Pretty good return. That being said, if anyone is looking for a slightly used red 2013 FR-S with 20k miles for a little north of $20k, please send me a message. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ja1217 Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 That being said, the car, in my opinion really needs an LSD and needs to be set up a little looser than most people prefer to really be as fast as it can be The car has a Torsen LSD and really is quite loose from factory, more so in the FR-S than the BRZ. My setup (Ohlins Road & Track dampers with 350lbs. springs all around) has nowhere near the amount of understeer you have and is very neutral. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aCab Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 That being said, the car, in my opinion really needs an LSD and needs to be set up a little looser than most people prefer to really be as fast as it can be The car has a Torsen LSD and really is quite loose from factory, more so in the FR-S than the BRZ. My setup (Ohlins Road & Track dampers with 350lbs. springs all around) has nowhere near the amount of understeer you have and is very neutral. Sorry, I meant it needs a clutch type. The torsen was causing some chassis bind for me. I worked with a chassis engineer near the end of the season and had some bilstein fully active suspension on the car. Pretty fun stuff. We came to the conclusion the car really needed sway bars and a clutch type LSD. There have been talks of getting quantity of 10s of Wavetracs ordered, but havent really heard much since then as I am selling the car. I had coilovers on my car, so the FRS/BRZ spring rate understeer/oversteer debate is mute. The factory cars are loose due to the tires IMO. Add good tires to a stock suspension car and it takes away a lot of the looseness. Any car can understeer if you drive it hard enough Had I been able to dial the understeer out, the car would have been even faster. At Gingerman, we broke the track record by 3+ seconds as is, could have probably been 4+ without the understeer. These cars are good as has been discussed in the thread. It takes the right combination of setup and driver to do well with ANY car. Those who think you can buy an FRS, throw some parts at it, and go out and win events with it are sorely mistaken. Its good, but it's not THAT good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottBell Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 The car has a Torsen LSD and really is quite loose from factory, more so in the FR-S than the BRZ. My setup (Ohlins Road & Track dampers with 350lbs. springs all around) has nowhere near the amount of understeer you have and is very neutral. Based on what I see at the insurance auctions the FR-S is looser(i.e. there are a ton more totaled scions out there than subies). I browse them because I'm half a mind to pick up a flood car if I can find one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboShortBus Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 Based on what I see at the insurance auctions the FR-S is looser(i.e. there are a ton more totaled scions out there than subies). I would say that sales, not suspension settings, are responsible for this. Per this article: http://www.edmunds.com/industry-center/analysis/drive-by-numbers-scion-fr-s-vs-subaru-brz.html In the 12 months the two cars have been on sale, Subaru has sold one BRZ to every 2.6 Scions sold. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 inbeforesomeonebitchesterryfairstyleaboutpriustires Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emmanuel B. Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 More recent numbers, but certainly agree with Mark. Month BRZ MTD BRZ YTD BRZ ALL FRS MTD FRS YTD FRS ALL May 12 271 271 86 86 Jun 12 818 1089 2684 2770 Jul 12 498 1587 1649 4419 Aug 12 623 2210 1913 6332 Sep 12 508 2718 1133 7465 Oct 12 402 3120 1107 8572 Nov 12 527 3647 1350 9922 Dec 12 497 4144 1495 11417 Jan 13 463 463 4607 1443 1443 12860 Feb 13 420 883 5027 1369 2812 14229 Mar 13 905 1788 5932 1828 4640 16057 Apr 13 812 2600 6744 1629 6269 17686 May 13 679 3279 7423 1937 8206 19623 Jun 13 789 4068 8212 1815 10021 21438 Jul 13 706 4774 8918 1614 11635 23052 Aug 13 868 5642 9786 1902 13537 24954 Sep 13 704 6346 10490 1230 14767 26184 Oct 13 780 7126 11270 1233 16000 27417 Nov 13 756 7882 12026 1298 17298 28715 Dec 13 705 8587 12731 1029 18327 29744 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emmanuel B. Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 inbeforesomeonebitchesterryfairstyleaboutpriustires Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sterling Doc Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 Production numbers are a big deal, but I also suspect the driver demographic is more favorable for the Subaru, than the Scion. The Gingerman video/time is impressive! I think the 225 A6's, coilovers, and E85 tune is the way to go. You still had points for an ASWB (or intake/exhaust mods). Can you decribe the "chassis bind"? The torsion should only be active under power, and would typically be more loose on entry than a clutch type diff. I'm interested, because I have a similar driving style of high corner entry speeds from years of trying to make a well-balanced low HP car (944 Spec) go fast. Trail braking was my friend in dealing with corner entry understeer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILIKETODRIVE Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboShortBus Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 Yeah, I was definitely "homing from work" on that one... Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emmanuel B. Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 (edited) Here are some STD corrected Dyno numbers for some of the highest hp gain mods currently available on the same dyno. Hoping to have a few variations with some other cars too. Catback Exhaust + 91octane _vs_ Catback Exhaust + 91octane + Tune Intake + Header + 91octane + Tune _vs_ Intake + Header + E85 + Tune. Intake + Header + 91octane + Tune _vs_ Intake + 91octane Intake + 91octane _vs_ Intake + Header + E85 + Tune 207whp is currently the highest number claimed on NA. Easy to see how this validates the modification of cats in headers on this car argument. This particular +2 mod would have netted ~19hp. Edited January 8, 2014 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
getfast Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 Do you have those with the NASA-recognized "SAE" correction not "Standard"? Standard correction sheets are referred to by our local dyno guy as "internet horsepowarz" because the numbers are always higher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 Standard correction sheets are referred to by our local dyno guy as "internet horsepowarz" because the numbers are always less consistent and repeatable fixed for truthiness Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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