Why isn't the FRS killing TTD?

[hhdinyuma]

I have a built frs that will be competing this year. It will be in TT2 to start as i am still shaking the car down. It will then be a TT1 car. The car should hopefully be pretty competitive.

 

That should be fun to watch. What region are you from? What mods have you done to make it a TT1 car?

[Emmanuel B.]

I have a built frs that will be competing this year. It will be in TT2 to start as i am still shaking the car down. It will then be a TT1 car. The car should hopefully be pretty competitive.

 

That should be fun to watch. What region are you from? What mods have you done to make it a TT1 car?

 

Yes, do tell!

[braknl8]

LS swap.....

[hhdinyuma]

Twin Turbo and Supercharger...

[Varkwso]

LS swap.....

[Boostedfrs]

It is the factory fa20. This year it is running around 350whp so the motor lasts. Will be building the motor over the winter.

 

Mod list

-full blown turbo kit Gtx28r

-custom fuel system (walb 255 in tank and bosch 044 after surge tank

-ID 1000cc injectors

-mfactory helical lsd

-Hollinger sg3 squential transmission

-hydra ems

-aim mxg logger dash

-larger oil pan

-setrab custom oil cooler

-Accusump 3 quart high pressure oil accumulator

-os geikan grand touring clutch

-aluminum driveshaft

-cusco motor mounts

-kw clubsports coilovers with swift spring

-white line sway bars

-white line bushings

-cusco rear caster arms

-white line lcas

-white line rear toe arms

-Wilwood six piston front big brake kit

-Wilwood four piston rear big brake kit

-Carbotech xp20 front

-Carbotech xp12 rear

-custom exhaust

-hoosier roadrace slicks

 

There is other stuff I can't think of im sure lol

I am in Nebraska which is the central region

[Emmanuel B.]

It is the factory fa20. This year it is running around 350whp so the motor lasts. Will be building the motor over the winter.

 

Mod list

-full blown turbo kit Gtx28r

-custom fuel system (walb 255 in tank and bosch 044 after surge tank

-ID 1000cc injectors

-mfactory helical lsd

-Hollinger sg3 squential transmission

-hydra ems

-aim mxg logger dash

-larger oil pan

-setrab custom oil cooler

-Accusump 3 quart high pressure oil accumulator

-os geikan grand touring clutch

-aluminum driveshaft

-cusco motor mounts

-kw clubsports coilovers with swift spring

-white line sway bars

-white line bushings

-cusco rear caster arms

-white line lcas

-white line rear toe arms

-Wilwood six piston front big brake kit

-Wilwood four piston rear big brake kit

-Carbotech xp20 front

-Carbotech xp12 rear

-custom exhaust

-hoosier roadrace slicks

 

There is other stuff I can't think of im sure lol

I am in Nebraska which is the central region

 

Cool build. Details on the mfactory lsd? How'd you adapt that or was it a direct fit? Comparison to stock vs the others (cusco, os giken), if you have any info.

[Boostedfrs]

Its a direct bolt in. It is substantially better then the torsion. Much more aggressive on the track. Also it's much more affordable then the os geikan.

[enivid]

What do you think about the new competition weight for the 86 in 2016?

[Greg G.]

What do you think about the new competition weight for the 86 in 2016?

Much better than adding an asterisk....

 

Oh, you weren't asking me, were you?

[enivid]

What do you think about the new competition weight for the 86 in 2016?

Much better than adding an asterisk....

 

Oh, you weren't asking me, were you?

 

I do have a question for you about this addition to the rules:

 

"*** (note: It is common for BMW M3’s, Honda S2000’s, Mazda RX-8’s, Scion FR-S/Subaru

BRZ, Nissan 350Z/370Z to show the highest horsepower readings in 5th gear.)"

 

Max HP in the 86 is going to be in 4th gear so if anyone just submitted a 5th gear dyno sheet, I would say they are cheating. So I'm wondering why 5th gear dyno sheets would be "common" for the 86?

[djqd36]

Why was the minimum weight increased again? What data suggested that it needed another bump up?

[ja1217]

Why was the minimum weight increased again? What data suggested that it needed another bump up?

 

I'm very curious about this as well. I did some research and checked all the track records I could find all across the country and in 2015 the FR-S/BRZ only set 2 track records. One was at NJMP Thunderbolt with North East region and it was the first time they have run with the chicane, so there wasn't anyone else to compare to (although the E36 M3 that has the rest of the TTD records in NE and Mid Atlantic was running in TTB that event in order to win tires and was 5 seconds faster). The 2nd record was at Brainerd International Raceway with the Central region and it too was the first time they have ever run at that track as far as I can tell. Not only that, but the record time set for TTE was 1/2 second faster than the FR-S's time in TTD.

 

If you include all years, this is what I found when checking track records for TTD:

 

BMW M3 - 20 track records

Mazda Miata - 14 track records

Other Mazdas - 12 track records

Other BMW's - 8 track records

Scion FR-S/Subaru BRZ - 8 track records (2 of which were the first time anyone had run the track, 2 others were in 2013 before any weight was added to the car)

 

And if that's not enough evidence for not adding weight to the car, lets take a look at the results of the last 2 years of championship events:

2014 ECC at Road Atlanta: 1st and 2nd place were 2 E36 M3's that were running in the low 1:40's (1:40.096, 1:40.279). In 3rd place was an FR-S that ran 1:43.510.

2014 WCC at Sonoma Raceway: 1st place was a Mazda Miata with a 1:50.188 and 2nd place was an FR-S with a 1:51.486

2015 ECC at VIR: 1st and 2nd place were 2 E36 M3's that ran a 2:11.317 and 2:12.044. In 3rd place was me, in an FR-S at 2:12.605. Since I was there I can also tell you that Eric Powell in his Miata was faster than everyone running 2:10.467, but was DQ'd for going over the dyno on one of his pulls. Also, the winning E36 M3 was recently wrecked and some what limping compared to its usual pace (it holds the track record at a 2:09.412, which would have won 1st place in TTC at 2015 nationals).

2015 WCC at Laguna Seca: 1st place went to Eric Powell in his Miata with a 1:40.864, which means he was faster than every one in TTC, including the one FR-S at the event that came in 2nd in TTC with a 1:43.470

 

Now I know both Powell and the E36 M3 guys are very good drivers with well set up cars, but the gaps between them and the closest FR-S/BRZ at most tracks is multiple seconds, not tenths. It's not even close. I regularly battle with the E36 that has all the track records in North East and Mid Atlantic and I am lucky if I can keep the gap within 2 seconds. While he probably is a better driver than I am, the few times I have been able to compete against other FR-S and BRZ's I have been the fastest so I don't think the gap is completely down to driver skill.

 

So, now that I have rambled on for a while, where is the data that shows that more weight needs to be added to the twins? Seriously, if some how all of us FR-S and BRZ drivers just suck or we've all gone completely the wrong way with our car setup and NASA has had some professional come in and wipe the floor of track records I would be really interested to know.

[sstfnv]

I'm a little disappointed. Looks like ND Miata is now a lot better classed than FRS/BRZ.

 

To add to ja1217's post, in the Great Lakes/Midwest region there are only 2 track records held by FRS/BRZ and one of them is 1 second slower than the TTE record for that track.

 

I thought I was doing good in TTD until the September event at the Autobahn Country Club when Jason Kohler beat the long standing TTD record by 4 seconds and I was 6 seconds slower than him in second place out of 8 cars. I don't see how with the current weight we can get close to that.

 

Official results from September Autobahn Event: http://timingscoring.drivenasa.com/NASA_Midwest_Region/2015%20-%20Official%20Results/Autobahn%20-%20September%202015/TT%20Final%20Results%209-20-2015.pdf

[djqd36]

Thanks ja1217 for taking the time to research the current track records and results and then post them up here!

 

Just to supplement to what you've added:

I know this year our FRS did snag a TTC track record at Buttonwillow #1 CCW.

Very similar to another of your examples is that there is a MX-5 in TTD running faster than us in TTC. (I do realize that the MX-5 has been increased for 2016 as well) That particular TTD car beat both the D and C track records.

 

From what I can tell, an FR-S holds only three track records in SoCal and AZ combined. At least one of which was before the original weight was added.

 

I know we've personally tried a lot of different parts/pts combinations to try and get competitive for E1 (PTC) and we just started to get competitive on outright speed at our last WERC race (usually racing E36's and Spec46's).

 

I just haven't seen the outright separation in performance of FR-S over the others to justify another weight increase.

[Greg G.]

The FR-S/BRZ was slated for an additional asterisk the past two years. We held off last year, as the cars were not developed yet, and the thought was to leave them for an additional year. This year, some cars were becoming developed, but none to the level of other cars mentioned. We expect over the year, that many cars will become developed now that the winning formulas are being posted. However, the potential once someone does a serious professional build is fairly obvious, and instead of adding the asterisk, that would make the current builds possibly turn into re-builds, we added just 55 lbs, which is less than half of the increase seen for many of those other cars you mentioned. The 55 lbs. is not going to do much to slow the cars down, but it might help to keep them where they are at as we adjusted most of the cars seriously competing with them.

 

While I don't like to talk about specific individual cars/drivers or even necessarily track records since there are so many variables that go into them, I will say that Mike is a great driver, with a moderately developed car, and beat the old "Crusher" TTC record at BW by almost two full seconds--but lots of variables including resurface at BW. He also beat the TTB record, but the TTB record was held by a TTC car that was driving on A7's for testing, and taking +30 points for them as Non-DOT's in '14, so it wasn't really a TTB car, although it was fast enough to get take a track record that had held up since 2009 (SRT4--LOL). My point is that there are lots of variables in looking at these lap times. Because of that, we often look to potential (except in the cases like some of those mentioned where we are finding lap times inconsistent with the class). Most of us would admit that there is a professional driver who could drive our car some degree faster than us, and there is a professional team, that if given the financial resources, could take our car and make it at least 1 second a lap faster or more. 55 lbs. is nowhere close to one second....

 

Also, don't forget to start looking for the ST4/TT4 (and maybe ST5/TT5, etc.) classes in '17 and '18, where this car would likely be an ideal candidate. ST4/TT4 should be about 12:1 Adjusted, with possibly some additional restrictions vs ST3/TT3 for cost efficiency. Many of you wanted it this year, but it was just too much to do for '16. We would be looking to announce more specifics before mid-'16. So, don't get all spec crazy now. Hopefully, the minor adjustments we made this year will provide for some of the best TT and PT race competition we have ever seen, with the FR-S definitely expected to be in the top tier.

[ja1217]

I must have missed Mike's record as I was only looking at TTD. I forget some times that there are a few people out there running the car in TTC. I would be very curious to see his TT points sheet though.

 

While I still think the additional weight is premature, I appreciate your post and you have cleared up a few things for me.

 

I am really looking forward to TT4 in 2017 and I agree that the car should be a pretty good fit there once you drop a bunch of weight and add a some aero. In the meantime I'll have to figure out how to add more than double my current amount of ballast to deal with the additional weight and to make up for some of the weight I'll be losing when I add proper race seats + harness to the car this winter.

[ILIKETODRIVE]

...and beat the old "Crusher" TTC record at BW by almost two full seconds...

That's impressive.

[erik911]

...and beat the old "Crusher" TTC record at BW by almost two full seconds...

That's impressive.

 

And, the TTC FRS got beat by a TTD Miata by 1 second.

[djqd36]

...and beat the old "Crusher" TTC record at BW by almost two full seconds...

That's impressive.

 

And, the TTC FRS got beat by a TTD Miata by 1 second.

 

My point exactly.

And if the 55lbs won't appreciably slow the FRS down, then then additional 45 won't slow the MX-5 down either....

 

Additionally, at least in SoCal, the competitiveness of the E1/PTD/PTC cars are at a noteably higher level than the regular competitors in TTC. Our cars lack of results in PT/E vs TT support this.

[ILIKETODRIVE]

...and beat the old "Crusher" TTC record at BW by almost two full seconds...

That's impressive.

 

And, the TTC FRS got beat by a TTD Miata by 1 second.

Ha!

[Greg G.]

 

And, the TTC FRS got beat by a TTD Miata by 1 second.

 

My point exactly.

And if the 55lbs won't appreciably slow the FRS down, then then additional 45 won't slow the MX-5 down either....

 

The MX-5 got 100 lbs added, and it is one of those cars that was fully developed by a professional team, with a driver who is arguably a professional based on his fees for coaching. It got more than 100 lbs added to Dyno re-classes. But, lets stop arguing about a single car--and go back to potential.

[djqd36]

Getting peanlized based on potential doesn't make any sense. Based on your explanation it sounds like the FRS adjustment based on a single car.....

 

The weight of the 2015 TTC/PTC Western National Champion was increased by the same amount as the FR-S....

The FR-S hasn't won anything on a national level. Its as simple as that.

[kbrew8991]

Getting peanlized based on potential doesn't make any sense.

Uhh, makes perfect sense. Things should be set on a reasonable best case car showing up that takes advantage of that model's particular potential.

 

If you set it up based on some people putting out half-assed cars (no offense), what happens when someone builds a good version? They dominate. At least until and adjustment happens at year end anyway.

 

Now if you think it's been overshot in this case or whatever, then that's fine. I don't have much data either way.

[ILIKETODRIVE]

Getting peanlized based on potential doesn't make any sense.

Uhh, makes perfect sense. Things should be set on a reasonable best case car showing up that takes advantage of that model's particular potential.

Exactly.

 

And what's funny is I think NASA tried to overestimate The Twins and still somewhat underestimated them. Remember: These cars have been out for, what, 3-4 years?

 

Miata? About 25.