Scion FR-S & Subaru BRZ WTW

[hhdinyuma]

Anyone like to share their thoughts on building and racing an FR-S or BRZ? I am currently running my FR-S in TTD and considering adding a cage and other items in order to give it a try in PTD this year. There is a lot of interest and discussion about these cars among the TT group and I see more and more 86's at each event I attend. I finished .059 second off the podium this year at nationals in TTD against some very good competition so I know the car has ton's of potential. Next Mazda Miata maybe??? SPEC86 in a few years maybe??? Sweep both East & West Nationals in PTD in 2014???

[Sterling Doc]

I am interested to see this develop, but don't yet have a lot to add. I've run my BRZ once, in TTE on 215 300 treadware summer tires with a muffler delete. It was great fun, and fantastic in the wet.

I am looking at coilover options, and an E85 tune, and some R comps.

[hhdinyuma]

Eric,

 

Norman just told me you have recently retired your 944. Any chance you might want to take on the grassroots leadership role for this new class? 26 pages on the TT forum, http://www.nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=110318, suggests the interest level for this car is already very high. I know you will love your BRZ especially with the mods you have made. We should compare notes on the suspension setups we each have since they are so different. I am sticking to my assumption that 245/A6's and stock springs will be the hot ticket for TT. I keep telling Norman that the FT86 is what the 944 would have become if it were still in production. He drove mine at Chuckwalla last week and had a blast. I am guessing that we should have enough interest/data to get NASA's attention and start a new SPEC class for the twins by 2016.

 

Seriously, I think this year will show the potential this car has to be an affordable, reliable, and fun car to build a SPEC series around. It should provide a place to play those of us who are getting tired of fixing broken cars at the track instead of driving and having fun!

 

Any idea's on what the SPEC86 prototype car would look like? I am looking to pick up an insurance auction one to play with. How about a SPEC ECU Re-Flash, SPEC Shocks/Springs, SPEC Tire/ Size, etc...

 

KISS+FT86=Winner!!

[Sterling Doc]

Hal, let's talk offline this weekend.

Check your PM.

[Emmanuel B.]

Won't be caging mine for the 2014 season, but will certainly be running it with SE and MA. My current setup is E-85 Tune/Exhaust/Coilovers/235 r888s(old set). There's definitely a good level of excitement surrounding the car. I'm very much looking forward to a Spec 86 class in a few years. A header + tune is almost required for eliminating the torque dip and the additional hp/tq (especially if the base weight gets modified). I noticed a huge difference with coil-overs on the car compared to stock but would be willing to grab a set of TRD lowering springs to see how that feels. The stock brakes will barely make it through a 30 min race, and the consumables will get ridiculously expensive, so the verdict is out on brakes if you ask me. For now, my likely TT/PTD setup would then be:

 

Coil-overs: +5

E-85 Tune: +0

Header/Exhaust: +5

225A6 or 245 R6/GACTSS: +9

 

PT is struggling across the board, with only a few regions actually filling up specific classes. I think that will be the hard sell unless this year and next see massive count increases. Personally, I would rather see the PTD fields grown all together (also allowing the cars to run in TTD competitively), considering how "fun" it is to spend $1k on a race weekend with no one to race against in class.

 

That said, I still plan to join the guinea pigs who serve as a test bed for determining the future of Spec86. Count me in for all conversations, planning, testing, and shenanigans involving the twins. I don't have the seat time/skill to sweep East Nationals yet, but I'll be there. Will be thinking about SPEC86 setup ideas this weekend.

[Emmanuel B.]

Here's a good starting template for discussion!

GT86 Cup Specs - http://www.toyota-motorsport.com/motorsport/images/CS-V3_Technical_Specifications_2013_car.pdf

 

My thoughts on cost-effective and cross PTD set up.

• + ECU Reflash and E-85[this car responds so well to it, almost a must]

• + Coil-overs OR Lowering Springs & Sway Bars & End Links & Camber bolts [possible TRD contingency].

• + Cat back Exhaust/Track pipes/Muffler Delete etc

• + Brakes (STI brakes/AP Racing Kit/Alcon BBK[possible contingency])

 

Other things not on the list -

Bushings, Cooling (need more data, doubt stock cooling will be efficient for 30min nose-tail summer racing)

[kbrew8991]

the most effective Spec classes seem to be the ones that have ONLY the modifications the car needs to have to be fun to drive. If you go too far, opens up too many places for development/tweaking/etc and the spread grows between haves and have-nots. You may still see some "optimization" done on stock parts in super deep and super competitive Spec series, but the gains are far more minimal. No ruleset can fully contain costs to be competitive, but they can be structured such that the advantage gained in optimizing those extra areas is minimally small.

 

The idea in a Spec class is to have the cars as equal as possible and let the best driver rise to the top, no?

 

And +1 to developing a Spec class within PT/ST/SU structure until it gets big enough to warrant its own pond.

[Emmanuel B.]

EDITED: Simplified. Water/Oil temps not an issue for 30-45min stints after a bit of research.

Here's a good starting template for discussion!

GT86 Cup Specs - http://www.toyota-motorsport.com/motorsport/images/CS-V3_Technical_Specifications_2013_car.pdf

 

My thoughts on cost-effective and cross PTD set up.

• + ECU Reflash

• + Lowering Springs & Camber bolts [possible TRD contingency].

• + Track pipes/Muffler Delete

• + Brakes (STI 6 piston/AP Racing Kit/Alcon BBK[possible contingency])

[braknl8]

EDITED: Simplified. Water/Oil temps not an issue for 30-45min stints after a bit of research.

Here's a good starting template for discussion!

GT86 Cup Specs - http://www.toyota-motorsport.com/motorsport/images/CS-V3_Technical_Specifications_2013_car.pdf

 

My thoughts on cost-effective and cross PTD set up.

• + ECU Reflash

• + Lowering Springs & Camber bolts [possible TRD contingency].

• + Track pipes/Muffler Delete

• + Brakes (STI 6 piston/AP Racing Kit/Alcon BBK[possible contingency])

 

With the current cost of the car, what would the total cost of the above build including cage, fire sup and other required equip for w2w be in the neighborhood of?

[Emmanuel B.]

EDITED: Simplified. Water/Oil temps not an issue for 30-45min stints after a bit of research.

Here's a good starting template for discussion!

GT86 Cup Specs - http://www.toyota-motorsport.com/motorsport/images/CS-V3_Technical_Specifications_2013_car.pdf

 

My thoughts on cost-effective and cross PTD set up.

• + ECU Reflash

• + Lowering Springs & Camber bolts [possible TRD contingency].

• + Track pipes/Muffler Delete

• + Brakes (STI 6 piston/AP Racing Kit/Alcon BBK[possible contingency])

 

With the current cost of the car, what would the total cost of the above build including cage, fire sup and other required equip for w2w be in the neighborhood of?

 

I'm no expert, but here's some numbers.

Car : $27000

Roll Cage : $3000

Fire Sup. : $500

Seat. : $900

Belts : $300

ECU Flash : $500

Springs : $300

Trackpipe : $300

Brakes : $2000

Misc : $200 (tow eyes, nets, etc)

~35K labor not included, but as always, the sky is the limit.

 

On the lower end of the spectrum(15-17k car, 1k cage, $50 fire bottle, $500 seat+belts, $500 flash, $200 used springs, $500 rotors, $500 misc) ~20K

 

PS: I'M NOT INVITING A FORUM WAR ON EXACT COSTS OF ANY ITEM!!! Disclaimer again: I'm no expert! Just my shopping cart!

[Sterling Doc]

I'm the same boat as Phast - no cage for 2014. As it sits, the cars are pretty expensive, but with good production numbers, and supply catching up with demand, that should change with time. 2014 should be a good development year. While it's still very early, it is tempting to speculate on the future of the car. It's got the right bones, but there is still a lot to be learned about them under racing conditions. When (if) the time comes, there is one thing that is critical, it's getting things right, and tightly spec'd out of the box. Fortunately, the cars are all the same from a performance potential so far. No optional LSD's, motor variations, etc. yet.

 

As far as mods, fun/$ is critical, as is durability - and there is a lot we don't know yet -beyond the obvious, things like, do bushings hold up?

 

Another thing we don't really know yet is how light these cars can get when effectively gutted - sans airbags, sound deadening, A/C, interior, etc. Often a good diet is all you need for the stock brakes to work well with the right pads+fluids+cooling. The

'86 has 294x24mm rotors - larger diameter and thicker rotors than a SE30 (260x22mm), or a 944 (289x20.5). With gutting, the car should get into the 2,6XX range, ready to race, I'd imagine. Stock brakes should work in theory.

 

To add to the list above, the car cries out of a quality suspension, and the ability to corner balance well.

I see: Coilovers, camber plates (much better than crash bolts in racing), bushings, and, antisway bars.

 

E85, as wonderful as it is, is not very practical for a series as it is not widely available, especially at the track.

 

The car needs an oil cooler for optimal reliability IMO, but this is pretty typical.

 

Fun to dream on this stuff!

[ja1217]

Another thing we don't really know yet is how light these cars can get when effectively gutted - sans airbags, sound deadening, A/C, interior, etc. Often a good diet is all you need for the stock brakes to work well with the right pads+fluids+cooling. The

'86 has 294x24mm rotors - larger diameter and thicker rotors than a SE30 (260x22mm), or a 944 (289x20.5). With gutting, the car should get into the 2,6XX range, ready to race, I'd imagine. Stock brakes should work in theory.

 

Not sure if they got rid of AC or not, but the interior is definitely stripped in most of the cars in Hot Version 121 (skip to 20:00 for list of weights):

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNTkxODc5OTY0.html

 

The lightest GT86 (without replacing body panels) was 1110kg = 2442lbs, which I think is the weight without the driver and the car has no cage, so I think your estimate of 26xx with driver should be pretty close, but you might be overestimating how much weight these cars can lose.

[Emmanuel B.]

I'd personally like the car to be lighter as well. 2650 base weight requires some moderate work, but will be at the bottom of PTC with a dyno reclass given the pwr/wt and is illegal for PT without a dyno reclass. Thoughts on getting around that dilemma?

[hhdinyuma]

the most effective Spec classes seem to be the ones that have ONLY the modifications the car needs to have to be fun to drive. If you go too far, opens up too many places for development/tweaking/etc and the spread grows between haves and have-nots. You may still see some "optimization" done on stock parts in super deep and super competitive Spec series, but the gains are far more minimal. No ruleset can fully contain costs to be competitive, but they can be structured such that the advantage gained in optimizing those extra areas is minimally small.

 

I think Ken's comments are right on. I feel that the fewer the modifications the better. These cars are exceptionally fun to drive right out of the box and would actually require very few changes to make them safe and reliable. I would like to see the car prepped using the TT/PT classing rules and limit the mods selected to produce 19 points. The list might have to be changed around some depending on what happens to the Twins base classing in the near future. That would put the car near the top of the class for TTD/PTD and be eligible to compete in TT with a supersize if it is available without making any changes between sessions. My experience so far leads me to believe the car will be most competitive in PTD/TTD. As I see it, the biggest problem we have running in PTC/TTC is not the car but what it would take to get close to a 12.0 to 1 Weight/RWHP level without going FI. That would be around 220RWHP at a comp weight of 2650! I would like to see someone compete in PTC/TTC though for comparison. Here's my line of thinking regarding allowed modifications:

 

1. SPEC ECU flash that makes around 180 RWHP and uses 91 Octane fuel. This makes the car pretty racy at 15.1 to 1 Weight/RWHP. Mine is around 14.55/1 at 2800 lb now.

2. SPEC Tire in a 235/17 size. Probably Toyo RR's since they are a major sponsor. I have run RR's and Hoosiers on light cars and think the RR's can do OK in TT. Unfortunately they don't come in a 225 size right now.

3. SPEC Shock package. Non Inverted and Mid priced to make them somewhat affordable for everyone and still have reasonable performance and tuning benefits.

4. Minimum competition weight around 2725.

5. Any wheel that is 9" wide or less.

5. Modifications from the TT/PT points section selected from the Tires (Toyo 235/40ZR17 (+, Engine (CAI (+1), and Muffler Delete (+2) only, Suspension (Shocks (+3) & Springs (+2) only) and Weight sections (2725 Lb. Min Comp Wt. (+3). No Drivetrain , Brakes, or Aero allowed. Equals 19 points...Perfect for PTD/TTD.

6. From the TT/PT No Points Modification sections: Light Battery, Air Bags, Wheel Studs, Bushings, Camber plates, Brake Pads, Brake Rotors (OEM Size & Shape),Brake Cooling Ducts, Front & Rear Strut Tower Bars, Drivers Seat, maybe a few others as well.

7. Stock dash must remain (Can be gutted and modded for roll bar, gauges etc.). Interior may be gutted. Window glass can stay or go but must be down during competition.

8. Any data acquisition OK.

9. All NASA CCR Safety stuff.

10. ???

 

I know it is probably a little too minimalist for some but I think it could work.

 

I would like to see a grassroots group come together and roughly agree on a common car setup and basic rules along these lines so that we can start running in PTD/TTD sometime this year and next. That way, when the time comes to get SPEC86 going no one will need to make wholesale changes to their car and we will already have a model that NASA has gotten used to so hopefully the class will just naturally occur. I really like the way the SPEC-Z rules are written, and I think NASA does too! A version for the FR-S would be even simpler to start with since all the cars are the same (virtually) so far. Bottom line... if it can be left stock/OEM then it should be. Reliable, Safe, and Equal are what I think we should focus on. Think B-SPEC. We have the potential to being a lot of new blood to the sport with this car. There were six FR-S's participating in the various classes at WHPE this past weekend. Most of them were young and first or second timer's. I met and talked with all of them. Their enthusiasm is boiling over. We can really take advantage of that their interest if we do it right!

 

My car is close enough that I could get some Toyo's, Shocks, Springs, and put the front pipe back on and try this setup at a few TT events this year. I already have a 91 octane tune that with a few tweaks should be around 180 HP. Add a cage, kill switch, Seat & Harness and I could be ready for PT.

[Emmanuel B.]

2775 - 2725 = 50 (+4)

[kbrew8991]

rules say "greater than" not "greater than or equal to". 50th pound ok at +3, 51st pound triggers +4. Probably don't want to cut it quite that close anyway though

[Emmanuel B.]

rules say "greater than" not "greater than or equal to". 50th pound ok at +3, 51st pound triggers +4. Probably don't want to cut it quite that close anyway though

Brain isn't working this morning. I'll have coffee and breakfast before I post anything else.

[hhdinyuma]

Anybody used the KW Variant 3 Coil Over's on the Twins yet. I have used KW Clubsports on my Mustang and liked them very much. The Variant 3's seem to meet the guidelines I suggested earlier. They are about $2,200.00 from Tire Rack. I believe they are made by the same company that makes AST. Most important, they should be readily available and not require any customization for our use.

 

I think this picture is generic. I don't believe they have the reservoir attached. I might be wrong though.

 

[Emmanuel B.]

Anybody used the KW Variant 3 Coil Over's on the Twins yet. I have used KW Clubsports on my Mustang and liked them very much. The Variant 3's seem to meet the guidelines I suggested earlier. They are about $2,200.00 from Tire Rack. I believe they are made by the same company that makes AST. Most important, they should be readily available and not require any customization for our use.

 

I think this picture is generic. I don't believe they have the reservoir attached. I might be wrong though.

 

A close friend had them on his FR-S. They're really good on track (he shaved about 2 seconds a lap at Talladega Grand Prix with just that change only over stock). They're extremely harsh and horrible on the street though, hence the reason I decided against them for MY TT car. Here's 'a pic of FR-S KW V3. (No reservoir)

http://www.garagefrs.com/kw-v3-coil-over-suspension/

[hhdinyuma]

Sounds like they should be included on the short list then as a candidate for a SPEC86 Shock/Spring package. I like that they are double adjustable and can still remain as a 3 point shock. Anyone using other similar packages on the Twins want to weigh in? Does anyone have info on what might be available from TRD? Just curious since they could/should be considered as a possible title sponsor down the road maybe.

[Emmanuel B.]

Sounds like they should be included on the short list then as a candidate for a SPEC86 Shock/Spring package. I like that they are double adjustable and can still remain as a 3 point shock. Anyone using other similar packages on the Twins want to weigh in? Does anyone have info on what might be available from TRD? Just curious since they could/should be considered as a possible title sponsor down the road maybe.

I concur - ADD TO LIST.

 

No shocks from TRD yet. Just lowering springs and sway bars (rebranded Eibachs). The GT-86 race cars being sold by Toyota are using Ohlins R&T.

I personally use Yellow Speed Dynamic Pro Sport - http://yellow-speed.com/dynamic-pro-sport.php (but that's because I wanted some comfort for the 300 days of the year I'm not at the track after experiencing those KW V3s) plus I wanted something with camber plates included. Haven't measured the performance gain compared to KW V3s, though I was 3 seconds faster on my one hotlap at Road Atlanta in Dec. compared to Sept. with no changes to the factory settings and stock car. (Didn't bother going out for the rest of the weekend because of the weather and helping out with final race weekend stuff.)

 

Can you explain how that's still a 3pts? I thought that's a +5.

[kbrew8991]

shock at +3, springs for +2, total of 5. Probably why y'all aren't quite on the same page.

[hhdinyuma]

shock at +3, springs for +2, total of 5. Probably why y'all aren't quite on the same page.

 

What Ken said...These shocks meet the following portion of the rules:

 

E. SUSPENSION:

3) Non-BTM or modified/re-valved shocks/struts/dampers +3 (all others)(springs not included)

5) Non-BTM or modified coil springs, leaf springs/spacers/brackets, or torsion bars +2

 

The shocks themselves are only 3 points but of course adding the springs will make the total package 5 points. Sorry if I made it confusing.

 

Since they have only 2 adjustments, no external reservoir and less than 40MM shaft diameter they meet the requirements of 3) above. I haven't actually checked the shaft diameter but I am pretty sure they are less than 40MM. My KW Clubsports measure 22.5MM.

[Emmanuel B.]

shock at +3, springs for +2, total of 5. Probably why y'all aren't quite on the same page.

 

What Ken said...These shocks meet the following portion of the rules:

 

E. SUSPENSION:

3) Non-BTM or modified/re-valved shocks/struts/dampers +3 (all others)(springs not included)

5) Non-BTM or modified coil springs, leaf springs/spacers/brackets, or torsion bars +2

 

The shocks themselves are only 3 points but of course adding the springs will make the total package 5 points. Sorry if I made it confusing.

 

Since they have only 2 adjustments, no external reservoir and less than 40MM shaft diameter they meet the requirements of 3) above. I haven't actually checked the shaft diameter but I am pretty sure they are less than 40MM. My KW Clubsports measure 22.5MM.

Right. Yes, they are less than 40mm. I've always calculated them as +5 since I'd never expect anyone to buy that and replace springs with stock. Whew! I've been off all day, easily confused. I'll blame it on SharePoint 2013 setup kicking my butt this week at work. OK. Back to the conversation.

I can't think of a more affordable suspension set at this level, except the made it Taiwan sub $1k options... but those are not designed for dedicated track use.

[Sterling Doc]

Agreed. While in theory the RCE Tarmac 2's (track-tuned KW's) or the Clubsports would be superior on the track, the V2's would seem to be the best combination of cost & wide availability. Spec Z uses KW's, which is a good sign. Definitely need some sort of coilovers for corner weighting. Eventually, a spring rate will need to be spec'd, and this may well not be the off-the shelf V2 rates. Springs are cheap to replace, though.

 

Gutting cats? For a pure race car, a full spec exhaust would be nice, though this works out less well in PT. Again, well see what happens with classing.

 

For weight issues, you can always ballast back to PT legality. Lighter is cheaper when it comes to consumables, and ='s free speed. We don't know how light these cars can reasonably get, but a min race weight around 2,650 would be nice.