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bob-e

ptb/ptc car counts

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bob-e

I'm curious how many ptb/c cars are in each region? I've browsed east coast and I'm coming up with about 2-3. At nationals it's small and would probably be nonexistent if it weren't for double dippers from HC and GTS. Dunno if it's been talked about before, but would having a ST4 class help? It would make it easier to mix in other cars with low counts on a given race day (gts2, spec z, CMC, etc.). Looks like PTE and even D does ok, but I don't see how replacing PT with ST 1/2/3/4/5 wouldn't be a bad idea. Seems like front runners are all dyno reclass anyway, so you could do away with that.

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kbrew8991

Ask the Corvette guys you run with what they think of leaving the points-limitations behind and going whole-hog on a pure hp/weight money spending contest class instead. I think you'll find them not happy. I think you'll find any serious PTer also not willing to give up on the points-limitation concept that limits the amount and extent of modifications and thus reduces costs to prepare a competitive car. Also - if fielding a slow car with unlimited suspension, tires, aero, etc was popular you'd see much bigger GTS1 car counts. They aren't that big. And then add 2-3 even higher lb/hp classes behind that.

 

That said, I wouldn't totally be opposed to using an ST-like formula on a regional level to lump smaller car-count classes together to at least get people racing more than 0-1-2 cars - heck, if I was a regional director I'd be very tempted to put every class with less than 5 or so cars over into the PT/ST/SU system and bump them up the ladder until that 5+ is reached. That ST1/2/3/4/5 concept as a national class, hell f-ing no. I'll sell my cars and quit. I suggest that if you are unhappy with how your class is doing in your region that you do something positive one way or another about it

 

I also would NOT put much if/any stock into Nationals car counts from last year for sure, and maybe even the past couple years. If that format was working so well it would not have been abadonded and replaced with the split-coast concept being tried in 2014.

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bob-e

Thanks Ken, appreciate the input. To me, vette guys just like to bitch. Heck, they bitched about having nationals at their home track! In my region, they just quit. Looking at lap times, if they would have just run PTA trim, they probably would have had the same outcome as years past. Just curious, if money was no object, how much would it cost to get your car competitive at say a ST5 level? Would people really run out and do wind tunnel testing on a sentra or miata?

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kbrew8991

if ST5 replaces PTF then right now I'm looking at:

- Custom coilovers from AST $4-5k minimum (there are cheaper OTS solutions, but...)

- upgrade to 17x8 / 17x9 wheels & corresponding bigger Hoosier A budget (vs smaller Hoosier Rs) x at least 2 sets

- airdam, splitter, front hood/radiator exhaust, and wing work

- then any modifications to the engine to hit any change in hp/weight ratios (if any)

- any necessary support type modifications needed if the hp/weight ratio changes alot (brakes, cooling sys, etc)

and that fields a merely resonable effort. All of that could very EASILY triple to quadruple the amt that I currently have tied up in the car.

 

A real-life full tilt effort is going to see:

- at least an extra $1k-$2k for even more high end suspension dampers

- some work on correcting any suspension geometry issues

- more testing of different aero parts on track

 

And then we can get super theoretical where I hire Adrian Newey, but...

 

Right now to be Nationals ready I would go wash the car, do some sim-work to prepare the driver, and maybe buy one more set of sticker tires.

Edited by Guest

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Disney

I don't think there are any Corvette guys that he runs with and that was the whole point of his original post. Non-existent participation will kill PT is nothing else does. Why field a class with 0 players? All year in the SE i've had a total of one other competitor in PTE. 1. That's..... 1. And he was a HC4 guy that just tried PTE for the smell of it.

 

I agree that it looks like the top performers in the PT classes are generally dyno re-class cars anyways, so how is it that much different from an ST123456 format? I see the valid points you're making about keeping PT as it is. But, with no cars in any PT class, why would we keep it as is?

 

I would discuss more, but I have to get my Sentra out to the wind tunnel for testing.

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kbrew8991

The smallest field I raced against this year was 3 cars. I've been part of 10 car races. I'm sorry you guys are unhappy with PT in the Southeast, but it isn't broken nation-wide. It isn't even neccesarily broken in your area of the country, or else your TT fields for those classes would also be 0s and 1s.

 

And that said, even if it were broken, stretching the ST concept down to 20lb/hp cars isn't the route I would take.

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Disney
The smallest field I raced against this year was 3 cars. I've been part of 10 car races. I'm sorry you guys are unhappy with PT in the Southeast, but it isn't broken nation-wide.

 

And that said, even if it were broken, stretching the ST concept down to 20lb/hp cars isn't the route I would take.

 

 

What route would you take? Put yourself in the SE shoes for a minute. You're towing 8 hours to race and nobody shows up. Ever. What would you propose could "fix" this? I'm all ears and I will support anything that I think is feasible for increasing car count in class, whatever class that might land my POS in.

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kbrew8991

Doesn't MA have a large PTE field - maybe a field that's going to want to practice for and run Nationals at a track close to them? There's your car count right there without any work whatsoever. Patience, grasshopper.

 

Bob's in a little tougher boat as it's not like there are large nearby car-counts for his class, but I still bet he sees a good increase from Nationals type practice as well.

Edited by Guest

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bob-e

I hear ya Ken. I was mostly looking at B and C though. How many do you guys have? I'm thinking zero. If I had to guess, I would bet 10 nationwide. I get that E and F is for cheap racing outside of the massive amount of cheap spec classes (spec e30, spec miata (not so cheap nationally), GTS1, etc). If we went to ST4, I wouldn't change a thing. I'd just hit p/w and drive it like I stole it. Just give me someone to race against. If ST2 is so crappy, why aren't we changing back? If it's so good, why don't we go full ST? See what I mean?

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bob-e
Doesn't MA have a large PTE field - maybe a field that's going to want to practice for and run Nationals at a track close to them? There's your car count right there without any work whatsoever. Patience, grasshopper.

 

Bob's in a little tougher boat as it's not like there are large nearby car-counts for his class, but I still bet he sees a good increase from Nationals type practice as well.

 

ma had 10 E cars, only 3 regulars. 2 B cars and no regulars. 3 F cars and no regulars. regulars to me would be more than 50% of races.

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kbrew8991

how far off is ST3's ratio for you? Change to the classes out there vs changing the classes to fit you isn't totally unreasonable is it?

 

TX had points scorers of:

PTB - 1 that ran most races

PTC - 17 (4 tin-tops + 13 Legends cars)

PTD - 7

PTE - 12 (admittedly bolstered by some SM/SSM double-dipping)

PTF - 9

 

PTB and PTC get pushed over into the SU/ST/GTS run group sometimes instead of the PTD-F/SE30/944S run group, and suffer a little car-count wise for it imo - no fun getting run over by those cars every few laps.

 

For comparison:

GTS1 - zero cars

GTS2 - 10

Spec Miata - 77

CMC - 31

AI - 25

Edited by Guest

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bob-e

tx, 1 regular in b, 3 in c, 3 in e, 3 in f. great lakes looks good for e, 1 race with 3 in B

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ILIKETODRIVE

AZ has a small PTE field right now...I know, I whooped whoever showed up lol...

...BUT at our 2.5hr enduro there were 5 E3 cars (I was weiner!) and there are 3-4 TTE cars making the jump.

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kbrew8991

Raw competitor count isn't a number to completely ignore - they're guys/gals with cars ready to go, just need some extra enticement to come out more often. I hear ya that as a regular it feels like regulars is all that matters though.

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bob-e

I;ve thought about ST3, but the biggest tire I can manage right now is a 245. I'm currently under powered for B, but it's a turbo car so pretty cheap to remedy the power part.

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kbrew8991

245s isn't awful, you get a pretty good credit on the ratio for it. If it were me I would try and drop some weight in addition - then you also don't need as much power and get the weight benifit in corners and braking.

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bob-e
245s isn't awful, you get a pretty good credit on the ratio for it. If it were me I would try and drop some weight in addition - then you also don't need as much power and get the weight benifit in corners and braking.

 

that's another issue. I run bfg R1 for their great contingency (that I rarely get to use) they cost as much points as a 275 hoosier A6. NASA must be in bed with Hoosier is the only thing I can figure. Also my car is 3200 race weight, so tire size could help me. Put my flying brick with a turbo penalty against a n/a C5 with 275s and it gets to be a joke. I hate to sell my car because I love it, but I didn't go to comp school to do time trials.

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kbrew8991

ST3 maths

3200lbs min weight - 367 allowed AWHP with the following credits/hits

+0.4 for 4 door sedan

-0.5 for AWD

+0.4 for 275s

That's not bad numbers. Would drop to 347 allowed AWHP if you choose to do aero in ST3 (extra -0.5 hit in the math).

 

The changes you're looking at going from PTB to ST3 are the same kind of changes *everyone* would be facing if their PT class converts to an ST style class. And those with more pedestrian chassis are going to be more against it lest they start to look at a similar Subaru vs Corvette type battle that you're looking at. Imagine trying to field a Sentra and Miata at the same hp/weight ratio. Which brings me to another plus of the PT system - each platform gets a different starting point to (hopefully) account for its strenghts/weaknesses (if any).

 

If you want a copy of the ST Excel calculator sheet I built, PM me your email - fun to play what-if's with.

Edited by Guest

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bob-e

nah, I worked it out (slow day at work). ST3 isn't bad and not out of the question, but ST4, say at 10:1 would be ideal. Shredding transmissions gets to be a problem for me at that power level. Thinking about the other guys in PTB that have the same prob as me. If you don't have a turbo car, adding 100hp is expensive.

 

I looked up points standings for all regions and E is the best (esp in California). D is ok and B&C is pretty much nonexistant (less than 10 nationwide).

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ILIKETODRIVE

We had a ton of B/A cars a few years ago (and TTC cars). They have all either gone to GTS3 or ST3 (or just left altogether).

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OSOSLOW

I think the real question should be; How do we entice those drivers in TT to make the jump to wheel to wheel? In the SE you had five TTB cars in December and five TTE cars as well. If you could get just a couple of those guys to make the transition that would be a start. My plan is to finish my car while doing TT then go to comp school. I'm sure most TT'ers like the low cost because of the instructor option but there has to be some of them that consider it a stepping stone like you did Bob.

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bob-e
I think the real question should be; How do we entice those drivers in TT to make the jump to wheel to wheel? In the SE you had five TTB cars in December and five TTE cars as well. If you could get just a couple of those guys to make the transition that would be a start. My plan is to finish my car while doing TT then go to comp school. I'm sure most TT'ers like the low cost because of the instructor option but there has to be some of them that consider it a stepping stone like you did Bob.

 

Good point. I have a welder. Let's finish out your cage

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OSOSLOW

OK cool. I'll drop it off while you're at work. Can I just pick any spot in the fence to drive through or should I follow the mustangs line?

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bob-e

1st rule of racing: never follow the mustang line

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Disney

dammit.... That one wrecked me.

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