SnoXRacer183 Posted December 26, 2013 Share Posted December 26, 2013 I guess my only concern is if you can get the fast TT2 Vettes down close to 3000 lbs. If they get down in that range they've gained an advantage over your 4 door boost buggy cars Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwertymess Posted December 26, 2013 Share Posted December 26, 2013 Page 6 C.4 From the ST Rules for TT "4) Modification of the OEM front bumper frame cross beam is permitted if a modified or replaced bumper beam remains that is equally strong for crash protection" Does this mean we must have the crash beams installed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwertymess Posted December 26, 2013 Share Posted December 26, 2013 AWD hit was reduced - are you factoring that in? Gotta look at all the variables that shifted around. Even after the variable shifts, we are once again at a loss for next year compared to the vettes. I would have figured that by now after going through the 2013 season; when a TT3 vette is putting down very close times next to a TT2 vette then something is a bit off. Its hard enough to catch them as it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fair Posted December 27, 2013 Share Posted December 27, 2013 Lots of little changes in the new ST rules, and they look good. I like that the 4 door exemption is being cut in half, as it didn't really hurt a lot of cars that could come in 2 or 4 door models. The E36 BMW 2 door and 4 door chassis weigh almost exactly the same, but the 4 door used to have a +0.4 modifier bonus but now is only +0.2 The new 2014 revised Competition Weight modifier chart for ST, above, is easier to wade through and penalizes the super light cars more (>1799 = -2.0!). Which I like, as those sub 1800 pound cars with driver aren't really "cars" per se, not by any modern definition. Just for grins here is the old, more complicated Competition Weight modifier chart from the TT ruleset, below. I assume the 2014 TT rules will adopt this new ST chart? I hope so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 On page 1 post 1 it was confirmed by Greg. Ever since I started doing this stuff for NASA in ~2005 or so, PT and ST car classing rules carried over to TT. Just a few different rules outside of that regarding competition format type things of course. Hey Folks! The 2014 ST Rules are posted (v 8.2). viewtopic.php?f=18&t=115185 You can use them for 2014 TT1, TT2, and TT3 classing. I'm still scratching my head as to how the weight tables for everyone changing still helps one car and not another though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnoXRacer183 Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 After looking at the math again, being able to run 245s last year was +.8, now this year its only +.7. Same for 275s going +.4 to +.3. So cars that were able to run smaller tires to be fast last year, now lose .1 to the vettes that pretty much run whatever size tires they want because they dont run skinny tires. Geff S was running 335s on his TT2 Vette, not sure what the TT3 guys are running. This is where the TT2 cars like an Evo are getting hurt it looks like. So while changing the weight table is the same for everyone, the smaller cars (or cars that can run skinny tires) are now being hurt by the new 245 tire rule. Was there a class last year that the 245 skinny tire really killed the competition? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted December 31, 2013 Author National Staff Share Posted December 31, 2013 Actually, there are plenty of Vettes that have been running 275's, and even a few trying 245's. Like you said, most of the cars using smaller tires are lighter weight, and the gains that they have from the new weight tables will outweigh the loss of 0.1 for tire size. As well, some of those lighter cars are also on slicks, and they gain 0.05 from the change in the Non-DOT assessment from -0.75 to -0.7. Obviously, because we do not make changes to specific vehicle models like we do in PT, there is an amount of flexibility that is lost. These changes should help the competition in ST3/TT3, which is actually the largest of the three classes already, after one season. Yes, most of the top guys in ST2/TT2 run full size tires, but many (or most) of those that don't will benefit from the weight table and/or slick adjustments and/or GT3 Cup car changes. Is is possible that a few cars will end up not benefiting, and have to add a few pounds, but we'll see. Also, at this level of racing (as opposed to FI for example), 15-35 lbs on a 3000+ lbs vehicle rarely makes the difference in a Championship. On a more general note, these are big changes that are rarely (if ever) permitted in any legitimate National series (mixing any/all purpose-built and tube-frame race cars with production based models). At the same time, we have been encouraged by the "bravado" of those stating that they are not concerned one bit about these cars coming into the series, even if they came with no Modification Factor. Our data and common sense differ with those opinions, but we have decreased the Mod Factor significantly from what we would have used if this had been done a few years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apexkingjusto Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Hey guys, can you help me further understand the rules around tire/wheel size rules in TT2? It seems like smaller 245's get more points but 275's are the largest you can go, is that correct? Thanks, Justin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 nope, you can run as big as you want / can fit in TT1/2/3 - BUT - you only get a decent break in the ratio for running 245s and under and a bit of a break in the ratio for running 275 to 250 width. Download the calculator and click the different tire width boxes - watch how the raw hp/weight doesn't change but the adjusted does when you choose the different tire width credits. Try these examples: 3000lbs, 400whp, 2 wheel drive car with no other applicable factors. Over 275 width tires the adjusted comes in at 7.500, which is too low for ST2 and would be placed in ST1 instead If they swap to 275 width tires the adjusted comes in at 7.800, closer but still beyond the limit for ST2 If they swap to 245 width tires then the adjusted comes in at 8.200 and would be legal for ST2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apexkingjusto Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Great I will try that thanks! One other question, is hp measured at wheels or crank? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted February 26, 2014 Author National Staff Share Posted February 26, 2014 Please read the rules if you are going to compete. You will need to know much more than the answer to this question. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apexkingjusto Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Please read the rules if you are going to compete. You will need to know much more than the answer to this question. Thanks. Yes of course, I've read through them at least once so far. Not competing this year though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted February 26, 2014 Author National Staff Share Posted February 26, 2014 7.4.1 Definitions (TT1/TT2/TT3 only) The “Adjusted Weight/Power Ratio” for each vehicle will be calculated based on a simple competition weight to peak chassis dynamometer (Dyno) horsepower ratio (Wt./Hp), followed by the adjustment of the resulting ratio by adding to, or subtracting from it, based on the list of “Modification Factors” below. Competition Weight is defined as the minimum weight of the vehicle, with driver, any time that it competes in a qualifying session or race. Note: peak chassis dynamometer horsepower and dynamometer testing procedures are defined in Section 9. Then, read all of section 9.... Chassis dynamometer means "at the wheels". Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apexkingjusto Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Great thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apexkingjusto Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 I'm finalizing an s2000 TT2 build. Typical very well setup chassis with a supercharger capable of 500whp but using a wastgate to pull boost at the top so I have a very nice powerband. I currently have 275's but was considering 335's. Car with me in it is 2885. It also has a hardtop non oem. So with 275 I loose .3 but then gain .3 so it's a wash and it looks like I can run 254hp. However if I go to 335's I have to deduct .7 so I can only run 320hp. Min thinking in better with 275's and the hight hp right? I may also look to drop another 50-75lbs and decrease HP. I can control boost electronically so it's easy for me to set HP wherever I want it. Is my thinking right here? Did I miss anything? Car generally speaking has a ton of work done to it, which is why I choose TT2 as I can't imagine I'd fit anywhere else. Thanks, Justin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvetthead Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 I'm finalizing an s2000 TT2 build. It also has a hardtop non oem. I can control boost electronically so it's easy for me to set HP wherever I want it. Is my thinking right here? Did I miss anything? Car generally speaking has a ton of work done to it, which is why I choose TT2 as I can't imagine I'd fit anywhere else. Thanks, Justin Better start a new thread for this... get ready Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILIKETODRIVE Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 I'm finalizing an s2000 TT2 build. It also has a hardtop non oem. I can control boost electronically so it's easy for me to set HP wherever I want it. Is my thinking right here? Did I miss anything? Car generally speaking has a ton of work done to it, which is why I choose TT2 as I can't imagine I'd fit anywhere else. Thanks, Justin Better start a new thread for this... get ready lololol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WynnS123 Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 LMAO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apexkingjusto Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Wow thanks for the help guys! As a new guy trying to start out here really appreciate all the support from you all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILIKETODRIVE Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Sorry. Total forum inside jokes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calif_Kid Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 I'm finalizing an s2000 TT2 build. It also has a hardtop non oem. I can control boost electronically so it's easy for me to set HP wherever I want it. Is my thinking right here? Did I miss anything? Car generally speaking has a ton of work done to it, which is why I choose TT2 as I can't imagine I'd fit anywhere else. Thanks, Justin I believe that for the non OEM hardtop, that they're saying that there was a lot of discussion on it with the thread being 47 pages at viewtopic.php?f=2&t=38768&hilit=S2000. - Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlkGt3 Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 I'm finalizing an s2000 TT2 build. It also has a hardtop non oem. I can control boost electronically so it's easy for me to set HP wherever I want it. Is my thinking right here? Did I miss anything? Car generally speaking has a ton of work done to it, which is why I choose TT2 as I can't imagine I'd fit anywhere else. Thanks, Justin I believe that for the non OEM hardtop, that they're saying that there was a lot of discussion on it with the thread being 47 pages at viewtopic.php?f=2&t=38768&hilit=S2000. - Jim True but the OEM hardtop only applies to TT3, TTB lower. TT1&2 have open aero $$$$$$ IIRC. Cockpit adj EBC is a whole nother can of worms. All your answers will be in the TT rules for the class you are running. Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apexkingjusto Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Never said anything about cockpit adjustment for boost, that is not wired in. Just wanted to get opinion on wheel size vs hp and confirm I got it correct that I take a .3 hit for the hardtop but then gain . 3 back for running a6's in a 275. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILIKETODRIVE Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Never said anything about cockpit adjustment for boost, that is not wired in. Just wanted to get opinion on wheel size vs hp and confirm I got it correct that I take a .3 hit for the hardtop but then gain . 3 back for running a6's in a 275. To clarify: Tire size, not wheel size. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J_Roberts Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Speaking of TT1,2,3 and boost control... I have to go dig it up but I remember specifically from a few years ago a discussion about how shape (or area under the curve) would be considered when looking at HP plots for W:P based classing (TT1,2,3). But, lately, I have been seeing some extremely flat HP plots, where seemingly only the peak power level is being considered. How the super flat HP tunes are being obtained is nothing new, it just takes FI and a good boost controller with RPM tunable boost set points. The resulting torque plots look like a playground slide, sloping left to right. But I digress. The question is, are the gloves now off on this approach? Were they always off? Can I have a HP plot that is say at 90%+ of peak power for 100% of the usable RPM range? Or, is there a set standard that is used to evaluate the shape of the HP plot? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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