Hondas getting shafted by E.9?

[hufflepuff]

So i was looking at section E.9 that allows camber adjustment allowance for plates, shims, slots, eccentric bushings & bolts without point assessment.

 

Then under Appendix A they list for S2000 and similar cars, you must take +2 assessment for using a simple upper control arm with slots for the balljoint (at least this is my interpretation). This is functionally equivalent in that it provides simple camber adjustment. Why the +2 assessment, since the arm provides no other performance advantage? Sounds unfair that everyone else gets a simple camber adjustment method, but SLA suspension cars get penalized.

 

[TurboShortBus]

For the Skunk2 parts that you are proposing, you would take +4 per E9 and +2 per E18, for a total of +6.

 

Do a forum search for picking frogs and living with warts.

 

350Zs are not immune to this either, so you aren't alone.

 

The S2000 ball joint topic may have been beaten to death in 2009:

 

http://nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=28735

 

and

 

http://nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=28840

 

Mark

[AZELISE]

Can you slot the stock arm where it attaches to the two eye bolts?

 

I get between -2.5 and -3 degrees with stock arms and that is just right for me.

[TurboShortBus]

Can you slot the stock arm where it attaches to the two eye bolts?

Be careful, as this sounds a bit like "modifying" the arm, which could also cost +4 per E9.

 

Mark

[AZELISE]

Be careful, as this sounds a bit like "modifying" the arm, which could also cost +4 per E9.

 

Mark

 

I was thinking the same thing. I cants figure out what can be slotted without taking points. Yea, I'm going to leave that typo in there.

[kbrew8991]

Offset bushings, or get an arm that's worth the additional assessment

[hufflepuff]

Retracted.

Edited December 15, 2013 by Guest

[TurboShortBus]

Oh boy, here we go...something about not learning history and being doomed to repeat it...

 

Contact TT National Director and Slytherin member Greg Greenbaum at [email protected].

 

Mark

 

EDIT: See my comment below about your retraction.

[hufflepuff]

Those control arms that i've been running for a few years would bump me unexpectedly into TTD. To save others time, it looks like installing an adjustable ball joint in the OEM control arm is +2:

 

Adjustable eccentric bushing with the factory control arm are points free:

 

Here was a more in depth discussion.

http://www.nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=32207

 

I think it's a rule intended to penalize fast S2000s and now affects others, but i don't want to risk a DQ even if there's no competitive advantage.

[hufflepuff]

Offset bushings, or get an arm that's worth the additional assessment

 

Do you know of any for 90's hondas? Most of the offset bushings are adjustable, and someone said they are known to fail?

[TurboShortBus]

Retracted.

 

Last edited by hufflepuff on Sun Dec 15, 2013 5:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Yeah, nice retraction. Your post was something along the lines of, "I'm new here. Who do I contact to get this rule changed?" That's a recipe for failure.

 

Mark

[hufflepuff]

Retracted.

 

Last edited by hufflepuff on Sun Dec 15, 2013 5:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Yeah, nice retraction. Your post was something along the lines of, "I'm new here. Who do I contact to get this rule changed?" That's a recipe for failure.

 

Mark

 

I was just very shocked and disappointing by the rules, but i'm planning my setup to abide by the book.

[ILIKETODRIVE]

I think it's a rule intended to penalize fast S2000s and now affects others, but i don't want to risk a DQ even if there's no competitive advantage.

Not exactly. Welcome to 2009 when every non-Crapherson Honda has to take a boatload of points for camber adjustment.

 

My car is classed at the very top of PTE. If I simply add camber adjustment all-around and spherical bearings, I'm more than halfway into PTD with only the real benefit being better/even tire wear and not having to do an alignment after each race weekend.

[kbrew8991]

Every car running out there has warts they have to deal with. Welcome to any ruleset ever constructed, this one at least has a good amount of choice.

[Greg G.]

Retracted.

 

Last edited by hufflepuff on Sun Dec 15, 2013 5:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Yeah, nice retraction. Your post was something along the lines of, "I'm new here. Who do I contact to get this rule changed?" That's a recipe for failure.

 

Mark

 

I was just very shocked and disappointing by the rules, but i'm planning my setup to abide by the book.

The correct way to go into competition is to read the rules, and then build the optimum vehicle for the rules. Most of us cannot afford that, which is why we have the rules setup so there are a lot of different choices and variables. It is pretty rare to find a car that someone built to play with in HPDE without any regard to the rules that they may actually need to follow later, that doesn't have mods that are "not worth" the points that they are assessed. This is because the points that are assessed for various mods are based on the best case scenario for what that modification can do for a vehicle (and not necessarily your vehicle, but any vehicle). So, you will find, as you have, that if you want to rebuild your car to be a top dog, it will take a bit of massaging. Enjoy your massage.

[ScottBell]

 

My car is classed at the very top of PTE. If I simply add camber adjustment all-around and spherical bearings, I'm more than halfway into PTD with only the real benefit being better/even tire wear and not having to do an alignment after each race weekend.

 

On a double A arm Honda big negative camber and proper sphericals do a LOT more than just decrease tire wear.

[ILIKETODRIVE]

On a double A arm Honda big negative camber and proper sphericals do a LOT more than just decrease tire wear.

Agreed. BUT I don't see it being worth the +7 or more points that would be needed. I could run a 225 A6 over a 205 SM6 and pick up even more time.

[ScottBell]

On a double A arm Honda big negative camber and proper sphericals do a LOT more than just decrease tire wear.

Agreed. BUT I don't see it being worth the +7 or more points that would be needed. I could run a 225 A6 over a 205 SM6 and pick up even more time.

 

I forget that I gave up and just slammed the front of my car to fix the camber. My guess is, and some agree with me, that rule is to slightly penalize double A arm cars. We seem to have a pretty well balanced rule set and changing that now would throw a wrench in the works.

 

Spherical bearing are so worth the points that I run stock sway bars so I can have them.

 

edit: FYI for speeding points, I have a lot of data that tells me that I'm not any faster on a 225 tire vs a 205 tire in the same compound when they are on a 7 inch rim.

[Arca_ex]

edit: FYI for speeding points, I have a lot of data that tells me that I'm not any faster on a 225 tire vs a 205 tire in the same compound when they are on a 7 inch rim.

 

There's your problem lol.

[ScottBell]

edit: FYI for speeding points, I have a lot of data that tells me that I'm not any faster on a 225 tire vs a 205 tire in the same compound when they are on a 7 inch rim.

 

There's your problem lol.

 

Cant get the right offset on a 8 inch rim without hitting the suspension upright.

[ILIKETODRIVE]

A6 and SM6 are completely different compounds.

 

What car? I've run 15x8 +36 without touching a thing (949 Racing wheels; 1994 Integra).

[Arca_ex]

edit: FYI for speeding points, I have a lot of data that tells me that I'm not any faster on a 225 tire vs a 205 tire in the same compound when they are on a 7 inch rim.

 

There's your problem lol.

 

Cant get the right offset on a 8 inch rim without hitting the suspension upright.

 

That sucks. If we are both talking about 15" wheels the best size for a 225/45 Hoosier would actually be a 15x9" anyways, so you can see how running it on a 7" wheel isn't really a fair comparison.

[AZELISE]

How about a 7.5" wheel? And I notice they removed the simple slots from the 2014 rules.

[ScottBell]

A6 and SM6 are completely different compounds.

 

What car? I've run 15x8 +36 without touching a thing (949 Racing wheels; 1994 Integra).

 

That offset messes up the scrub radius. I can't stand the feel of the car.

[ILIKETODRIVE]

A6 and SM6 are completely different compounds.

 

What car? I've run 15x8 +36 without touching a thing (949 Racing wheels; 1994 Integra).

 

That offset messes up the scrub radius. I can't stand the feel of the car.

Ok...that's your opinion and that's fine. I 100% prefer 15x8 +36 949s to my 15x7 +43 Volk TE37s. Actually 110%. Why? Width.

 

I know the older 949 Racing 6UL wheels are 15x8 +40. Those didn't touch anything on my car when a friend borrowed it and swapped his wheels onto it...well the tires rubbed the body in the rear but that was because he had 225 Hoosiers and I had not yet rolled the body work lol.