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Can you win on street tires?


Grant

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37's at road Atlanta in D. Pretty sure that's happening in 2014.

This year is going to be awesome! Let's all bring it

 

 

I was just about to post the same time prediction in another thread. I use SCCA Improved Touring S as a benchmark, and a D car should be slightly faster.

 

edit: But I'm slightly scared of how fast I know I'll have to hit turn one to make a time like that.

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TurboShortBus
Makes me want to get the Miata dusted off and back on the track.

Bring it out! I need to trade punches with somebody for 3rd place in my rebodied 1978 Fairmont while Eric P. and Jon M. run away with TTD.

 

Mark

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More importantly I'm hoping to show that the E36 M3 can indeed be competitive in TTD on street tires. Guess we'll find out next year

 

I hope you can. I think TTD is going to be a freakshow in the SE/FL/MA regions in '14 with Powell and Koz going at it as well as the few frs/brz's in dev. Would be great to see an e36 on streets be competitive...

it'll suck at Roebling but probably good at RAtl... horses for courses

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I realize of course Hoosiers can be won (how much does this mitigate costs for most people?) and street tires must be shaved for optimal performance. Still NASA is s tough sell unless its feasible to win on something like a Hankook R-S3. So, is it?

 

 

In one word, NO, points can give a second or two, A6's can give you 3-5 seconds

Hoosier contingency is awesome. I haven't bought a tire in 5 years

Common sense leads to common results.

 

Comparing straight up tire vs tire, yeah sure they can't hang. Where it gets interesting is when you reallocate those 10-13 points elsewhere in the car. How good at picking mods are you, how good is your car going to respond?

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Just Huck it in there!

 

Speaking of which, yours is possibly the only "slow" car I've ever seen video from that doesn't bog a little when it hits what I call the "gravity well" as you start up the hill. You have like a 10:1 final drive in that thing or something?

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Common sense leads to common results.

 

Comparing straight up tire vs tire, yeah sure they can't hang. Where it gets interesting is when you reallocate those 10-13 points elsewhere in the car. How good at picking mods are you, how good is your car going to respond?

 

 

Mods will definitely help, I just don't think they can equal to what A6's w/o those mods can do. But the "street tires" of today are almost like R compound of old, so I'm sure it is doable, depending on the car.

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circuitmstr

Damn Scott, I wish I had video from last time I was there when the car was actually remotely dialed in and on proper tires, when I had a theoretical lap in the high 38's.

The video you have seen is absolute junk. That was one of the cars first major development weekends and it was garbage, along with the tires.

I've still only ran 5 events with the car and every time we are learning a lot about what it needs and making wholesale changes. Heck, apart from many many other changes, the engine I'm building right now will be the cars 4th engine already. Haha! Not because I'm blowing them up, but because I've been trying to guess at what it needs and we keep getting it wrong. This time we are going with a proven package to maximize power band. It's a very expensive learning curve! And I am the most financially irresponsible person on the planet!

Other big changes too. You will see soon enough. Hopefully the car will be much much better!

If not, I will look and feel very very stupid...

 

To answer your ? : 4.3 final drive and only 116 peak torque in that video. Haha

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nickhallman914
Pick 2 of these

- Very competitive chassis

- Close to the P/W limit

- Sticky tires

 

I'm very interested in this thread for ^^^ this ^^^ reason. I'm running a Miata in TTE right now, NA with a 99 swap and dyno reclass, but of course Greg didn't allow us anywhere near the P/W limit (rightfully so, since we already had 2 of the 3 criteria listed above). I know I've already deviated from the TTE Miata cookbook, so why not go a little farther and experiment with street tires?

 

I'm wondering if I'd get a big enough power number if I asked for a reclass that carried a * (7 pt. penalty) and then made up the point difference by running a really good street tire instead of the Hoosier. Our budget only allows for the purchase of new Hoosiers every 3 events, so by the time we're done with a set they're at 30+ heat cycles. I know I can get the car around Roebling 1 second slower on Z2's than I can on a 8-10 heat cycle Hoosier, and 1 second FASTER than a 25 heat cycle Hoosier. 1 second is a lot to ask power and aero to make up for, though... and to be "on pace" at Roebling I really need to be another second faster than I am.

 

As mentioned earlier, my experience with the Z2 shows it falls off pretty significantly after 3-4 hard laps in hot weather (braking grip is the first thing to go). But for TT, that's really all you need anyway.

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I'd be interested to see those results Nick.

 

I'd be very interested at a track that didn't favor odd cars / points setups / etc like Roebling

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nickhallman914

Good point, Ken... and in our case, for multiple reasons. Roebling is my personal best track, so was closer to our usual Southeast competitors there than at RA or CMP; also the car's current setup seems to favor Roebling the most.

 

I'm going to run the first half on the season on Hoosiers just to get more data before I seriously contemplate trying a switch. November at CMP was the first event with the new motor, and we picked up 2.5 seconds between that and driver improvements (still 1.5 seconds off "normal" CMP pace, and 3.5 off Putnam's pace). The dyno reclass also gave us some points back that we'll be using on a front air dam. And of course I still have a lot to learn about being a fast driver. Point is, I've got a lot of stuff to improve before we decide that we have problems that can't be solved without sacrificing grip for power...

 

However, the main thing that intrigues me is the idea that the street tires will be competitive for a greater number of sessions. Believe me, we're no one's idea of competitive by the time we show up for event #3 on 20+ heart cycle Hoosiers...

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Emmanuel B.
Good point, Ken... and in our case, for multiple reasons. Roebling is my personal best track, so was closer to our usual Southeast competitors there than at RA or CMP; also the car's current setup seems to favor Roebling the most.

 

I'm going to run the first half on the season on Hoosiers just to get more data before I seriously contemplate trying a switch. November at CMP was the first event with the new motor, and we picked up 2.5 seconds between that and driver improvements (still 1.5 seconds off "normal" CMP pace, and 3.5 off Putnam's pace). The dyno reclass also gave us some points back that we'll be using on a front air dam. And of course I still have a lot to learn about being a fast driver. Point is, I've got a lot of stuff to improve before we decide that we have problems that can't be solved without sacrificing grip for power...

 

However, the main thing that intrigues me is the idea that the street tires will be competitive for a greater number of sessions. Believe me, we're no one's idea of competitive by the time we show up for event #3 on 20+ heart cycle Hoosiers...

 

Don't chase Putnam

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nickhallman914
Don't chase Putnam

 

Yeah, no kidding...

 

I'll start worrying about Putnam when I can consistently compete for 2nd and I don't need a telescope to see him in front of me...

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I've seen this Putnam guy drive before - wasn't that fast but really hard on tires. Meh!

 

(of course that was because it was a bone stock VW CC rental car but... )

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Emmanuel B.
I've seen this Putnam guy drive before - wasn't that fast but really hard on tires. Meh!

 

(of course that was because it was a bone stock VW CC rental car but... )

 

Ah... the fine print!!! always the fine print!!!

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However, the main thing that intrigues me is the idea that the street tires will be competitive for a greater number of sessions. Believe me, we're no one's idea of competitive by the time we show up for event #3 on 20+ heart cycle Hoosiers...

 

If you are talking about Rs, then that's scary. I've been in a 45 minute race when a set of those decided to go off. Without putting the notebook out they were in the 10 HC range. If I had not already lapped most of the field it would have been a problem.

 

The most I've ever got from R was 12 heat cycles. Giving credit where it's due they were heat cycled by Tire Rack. I get 10 or 11 out of ones I HC myself.

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nickhallman914

Yes, I'm running R6's (well, SM6) and I'm getting a little more life - about 15 heat cycles - before the drop-off point. In my experience, the first 5-7 heat cycles are great, 8-15 are pretty good, and then it drops off a cliff. Anything beyond that drop-off point and I'm certain I can beat the Hoosier with a Z2 (at Roebling I have proof - other tracks, still collecting data). The question is, how much more power would I need before I could beat my own times on FRESH Hoosiers with a Z2? I intend to find out by running several sessions on the Z2's during each TT weekend. Hopefully the lap times and Traqmate data will give me a decent idea.

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