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TTB-TTF---2014 PT Rules are posted on-line now


Greg G.

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I'm a little confused about C.24 So a header that merges the exhaust primaries (i.e. 4->1 or 4->2->1) needs to take points for C.24? Meaning that pretty much every exhaust header ever made needs to take those points?

 

If so, may I as what brought about this change? It doesn't currently effect me, but I had a brief moment of hope for adding header to my car when I saw that my suspension set up cost me 2 fewer points under the new rules.

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To add to that:

 

C.25) now states - 25) Removal, upgrade, or modification of catalytic converter(s). +1 (note--in most cases will require C.24) points also if removed).

 

BUT within C.24) it CLEARLY STATES (and always has) - (does not include catalytic converter—see C.25)

 

willy_nilly.gif

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It's encoding in the ruleset what went out as a clarification to the directors this past (2013) season.

 

It's always been difficult/impossible to change the header(s) for most cars without also modifying the nearby piping at minimum. Same for removing a cat. This clarification is now spelled out and encoded in the ruleset. If you take C25 cat removal without C24 you'd better be damned careful you haven't changed any other nearby/adjacent piping. Same with C23 without taking C24, you'd better be damned careful that no portion of the non-header primary (last word there is important too!) piping has changed.

 

There are cars out there that this can be done (picking C23 without C24, or C25 without C24, etc) but it's gotta be a combination of OEM/BTM layout that is condusive to it, and even then you still also have to be very very VERY careful how the modification is done. The biggest point here is that C24 is VERY broad, if you change piping you trigger it in nearly every single case.

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I get that for sure.

 

However what they added to C.25) runs you in circles if you don't actually know cars or work on them and just simply pay someone to do it and drive them.

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It's always been difficult/impossible to change the header(s) for most cars without also modifying the nearby piping at minimum. Same for removing a cat. This clarification is now spelled out and encoded in the ruleset. If you take C25 cat removal without C24 you'd better be damned careful you haven't changed any other nearby/adjacent piping. Same with C23 without taking C24, you'd better be damned careful that no portion of the non-header primary (last word there is important too!) piping has changed.

 

Just to be clear, a header like the following would take 5 points, even though it only replaces the stock header and uses the rest of the stock exhaust system?

 

FT86-EL-Header_0.jpg

 

The top header is the stock header for an FR-S/BRZ.

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The original piece appears to neck down to a single piece of pipe after the BTM collector, so that looks like one that will trigger both mods. It appears to be similar to the case that started this snowball / mass clarification / directive to regional directors. Looks like you've got 2 flanges that connect to each head, then BTM header primaries, then a BTM collector, and then a BTM section of pipe, and then a flange that's all replaced with the new part. C23 only covers parts upstream of the collector and downstream of the heads as I understand it from Greg. C24 kicks in for any part downstream of the header primaries, and that is changed in this case it appears. And if there are pre-cats built into the BTM part, that'd trigger C25 as well for sure.

 

If it somehow does get a pass on triggering 23 & 24 I would keep good documentation of this on hand (OEM parts diagrams, lots of photos of both pieces from a few different angles, and most importantly Greg's email reply) since we're (directors) supposed to be watching very closely for people taking C23 without C24 and/or C25 without C24 as it's been commonly missed in the past.

 

(Greg - feel free to edit / clarify / whatever with my post so we get this right for everyone).

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What the replacement part has / doesn't have isn't as relevant as what all was removed / modified. The way it's written the BTM parts changed in this case include the header primaries (C23), header collector (C24), and short length of exhaust (C24) it appears (need to see a different angle to be sure). Even if we can get Greg to agree that the header collector should be accounted for with C23 instead of C24, there's still a short (but relevant) section of exhaust piping that's replaced that isn't covered by C23 but is covered by C24 from what I can tell. And precats seem to be removed too it looks like, which adds C25 to the mix even if the main cat(s) downstream remain(s) in place. And at that point it would just be wise to either put the old BTM part back on, or make sure the rest of the exhaust is modified to take full advantage from the points charged. We're not given leeway to slide the point values up or down, we can only look to see what is changed, click the box, and the points charged are what's listed no matter how well / not well the car can take advantage of the change.

 

Just offering what I understand of the ruleset - hope that helps!

 

The cat one (24 & 25) may illustrate things better. Most cars have the cat section flanged, but there's an inlet and outlet pipe that's also attached directly to the cat between the flanges. Bolting in a replacement test pipe changes the piping AND removes the cat, thus triggering both mods. If you carefully cut and weld to just remove the cat it's possible to do just C25, but rarely done that way.

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What the replacement part has / doesn't have isn't as relevant as what all was removed / modified. The way it's written the BTM parts changed in this case include the header primaries (C23), header collector (C24), and short length of exhaust (C24) it appears (need to see a different angle to be sure). Even if we can get Greg to agree that the header collector should be accounted for with C23 instead of C24, there's still a short (but relevant) section of exhaust piping that's replaced that isn't covered by C23 but is covered by C24 from what I can tell. And precats seem to be removed too it looks like, which adds C25 to the mix even if the main cat(s) downstream remain(s) in place. And at that point it would just be wise to either put the old BTM part back on, or make sure the rest of the exhaust is modified to take full advantage from the points charged. We're not given leeway to slide the point values up or down, we can only look to see what is changed, click the box, and the points charged are what's listed no matter how well / not well the car can take advantage of the change.

 

Just offering what I understand of the ruleset - hope that helps!

I hadn't considered that the UEL header would be removing stock exhaust components by not having a collector and take a points hit that way, so your explanation of the rules definitely helps. As I hinted at before, I haven't touched the exhaust system on my car yet, but, with the changes to the suspension rules for 2014 I have 3 points to spend and a header would top the list if it only costs 3 points. They seem to be good for somewhere in the 15-25whp range with a good tune typically.

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What does the stock header/exhaust manifold/etc look like underneath that heat shield?

 

This is the best picture I could find of the stock header without heat sheilds:

 

header1.jpg

 

Edit: Found a couple more:

IMG_20130316_125723_zpsc695a489.jpg

sidebysidetop__41299.1360907646.1280.1280.jpg

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In the first one I see primaries from each cylinder feeding into a funky / clunky collector in then center, then additional exhaust piping to take a turn towards the side then back of the car, then some sort of pre-cat or silencer, and then maybe (?) some additional piping before a flange that continues on to the rest of the exhaust.

 

(Greg, edit me if I'm wrong please!)

 

Can't see the second one (blocked on work connection).

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Ah ha, yeah I can see that 3rd pic. Looks like there's nothing after that precat / silencer blob at the end, BUT, the collector is considered that 4/2/1 mashed up mess in the center. Between the mess in the center and the precat looking blob on the far end is piping that falls under C24.

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Looking at those pictures as a factory-trained service technician that is very familiar with parts catalogs and how parts are labeled and sold, I would consider that ONLY replacing an exhaust manifold and cat, which is C.23) and C.25). That does not look like/walk like/talk like a "header primary" to me.

 

THIS is a header primary and a-pipe:

 

100_1893.jpg

 

Replacing this with a single piece 4-2-1 or 4-1 OR replacing both upper and lower parts would fall under C.23) and C.24) and replacing only the upper part would be just C.23).

 

Replacing just this would be C.23) only to me as well:

 

DSC01433.jpg

 

But that's me.

 

If I'm wrong, so be it but then even I don't understand what NASA would consider a "header primary" and an "exhaust manifold" which they CLEARLY separate in C.24) with OR.

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I've gone from "TTD classification done for the FR-S" to "Glad I didn't purchased my UEL headers this morning" in a span of 5 minutes.

Waiting for clarification on this as well.

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Exhaust Diagram for the Subaru BRZ (Scion FR-S is identical)

brzexhaust-diagram-550x271.jpg

The part labeled "Header" in the diagram is what is typically replaced with the aftermarket piece. It is a one piece assembly and is normally replaced as a whole.

 

5.3, C., 23) Aftermarket or modified header +2 (note--in almost all cases will require C.24) points also)".

The quoted section of the rules clearly identify the part being replaced "header" in this case. I see it as replacing identically labeled parts (OEM vs Aftermarket) that use the exact same mounting points and method of attachment and would only take points for 5.3, C., 23), as long as the rest of the exhaust system aft of the "Header" remained untouched. I would use caution with any system that includes the catalytic converter as part of the header since that would also trigger points for removal under 5.3, C., 25). The picture of the header included earlier suggests the canister shaped component might be part of the catalytic converter system, not sure.

 

25) Removal, upgrade, or modification of catalytic converter(s). +1 (note--in most cases will require C.24) points also if removed).

Additionally, if I understand kbrew8991's interpretation, we would all have to take C24 points when removing the catalytic converter if it involved replacing the length of pipe that connects between the catalytic converter and the rest of the exhaust system, even if the pieces of tubing are exactly the same size and connect in the OEM locations. Seems to me the intent of C25 is to account for the performance increase possible from removing the Cat, if you choose to do so. The method of filling the gap left by removing it should not get assessed additional points as long as there is no potential gain over and above the Cat removal itself.

 

NOTE: If you have already modified the exhaust system in any other way ie; muffler delete or modification, resonator removal, you already take points for C24) anyway so it really doesn't matter what you do with the Header/Cat.

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Exhaust Diagram for the Subaru BRZ (Scion FR-S is identical)

brzexhaust-diagram-550x271.jpg

The part labeled "Header" in the diagram is what is typically replaced with the aftermarket piece. It is a one piece assembly and is normally replaced as a whole.

 

5.3, C., 23) Aftermarket or modified header +2 (note--in almost all cases will require C.24) points also)".

The quoted section of the rules clearly identify the part being replaced "header" in this case. I see it as replacing identically labeled parts (OEM vs Aftermarket) that use the exact same mounting points and method of attachment and would only take points for 5.3, C., 23), as long as the rest of the exhaust system aft of the "Header" remained untouched. I would use caution with any system that includes the catalytic converter as part of the header since that would also trigger points for removal under 5.3, C., 25). The picture of the header included earlier suggests the canister shaped component might be part of the catalytic converter system, not sure.

 

My interpretation exactly.

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Exhaust Diagram for the Subaru BRZ (Scion FR-S is identical)

brzexhaust-diagram-550x271.jpg

The part labeled "Header" in the diagram is what is typically replaced with the aftermarket piece. It is a one piece assembly and is normally replaced as a whole.

 

5.3, C., 23) Aftermarket or modified header +2 (note--in almost all cases will require C.24) points also)".

The quoted section of the rules clearly identify the part being replaced "header" in this case. I see it as replacing identically labeled parts (OEM vs Aftermarket) that use the exact same mounting points and method of attachment and would only take points for 5.3, C., 23), as long as the rest of the exhaust system aft of the "Header" remained untouched. I would use caution with any system that includes the catalytic converter as part of the header since that would also trigger points for removal under 5.3, C., 25). The picture of the header included earlier suggests the canister shaped component might be part of the catalytic converter system, not sure.

 

25) Removal, upgrade, or modification of catalytic converter(s). +1 (note--in most cases will require C.24) points also if removed).

Additionally, if I understand kbrew8991's interpretation, we would all have to take C24 points when removing the catalytic converter if it involved replacing the length of pipe that connects between the catalytic converter and the rest of the exhaust system, even if the pieces of tubing are exactly the same size and connect in the OEM locations. Seems to me the intent of C25 is to account for the performance increase possible from removing the Cat, if you choose to do so. The method of filling the gap left by removing it should not get assessed additional points as long as there is no potential gain over and above the Cat removal itself.

 

NOTE: If you have already modified the exhaust system in any other way ie; muffler delete or modification, resonator removal, you already take points for C24) anyway so it really doesn't matter what you do with the Header/Cat.

 

According to the changes made for 2014 (and they were apparently in the 2013 rules as well, but this has now been emphasized), C.24 specifies that any changes downstream from the header primaries will incur 2 points. If you look at the pictures I posted earlier, you will see that there are the header primaries which merge into a weird looking collector, then there is a few inches if piping leading into the first cat. So if you are following a very strict interpretation of the rules it would seem that the only way you could modify the header and only take points for C.23 is to replace just the primaries and weld the replacements into the stock collector and cat. I currently don't know of any headers that are designed for this for the BRZ/FR-S and I really doubt it would beneficial if there was one. Don't get me wrong, I really hope we can replace the header for only 3 points because I have exactly 3 points to spend We'll just have to wait for an official ruling on this I guess.

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If that's the case NASA needs to be 110% CRYSTAL CLEAR in C.23) about the fact that changing or modifying the HEADER PRIMARIES is +2 instead vague roundabout wording between C.23) and C.24).

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This leads me to think there isn't as drastic a change in the rules (for the specific example here of the 86) compared to last year.

+2 : C23) Modified header (cats untouched and over/front/mid/muffler piping unmodified)

+2 : C24) Modified exhaust (over/front/mid/muffler piping modified or aftermarket)

+1 : C25) Modified cats ( in anyway aft header primary to exhaust)

 

My understanding of the rules remains intact, but I can see how further clarification would be beneficial.

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If that's the case NASA needs to be 110% CRYSTAL CLEAR in C.23) about the fact that changing or modifying the HEADER PRIMARIES is +2 instead vague roundabout wording between C.23) and C.24).

 

Agreed. If you are to be bound by a rule that is vague and contains an ambiguous and/or undefined term, "header primary" in this case, then there has to be a clear and concise explanation of the term contained in a glossary somewhere. I see the term "header primary" as being the entire system beginning at the exhaust port in the head to the termination point (collector) where the header primary tubes join and mate to the rest of the exhaust system. Research from various header manufacturer's websites would seem to indicate that the industry agrees with this definition.

 

Additionally, rule 5.3, C., 24) states that the +2 only applies to components which have been modified "downstream" from the "header primary". How can we be expected to fairly assess points if the term "header primary" is not clearly defined? You have to assume that we are required to use the industry standard definition of primary and go from there until we are provided with specific "official" guidance otherwise.

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