TTB-TTF---2014 PT Rules are posted on-line now

[hhdinyuma]

Why is there no "09" Mustang GT Base Class? There is one for the V6 but not the GT.

 

Mustang GT ('07-'08) PTC 3356

Mustang GT ('10) PTC 3530

[Greg G.]

If that's the case NASA needs to be 110% CRYSTAL CLEAR in C.23) about the fact that changing or modifying the HEADER PRIMARIES is +2 instead vague roundabout wording between C.23) and C.24).

 

Agreed. If you are to be bound by a rule that is vague and contains an ambiguous and/or undefined term, "header primary" in this case, then there has to be a clear and concise explanation of the term contained in a glossary somewhere. I see the term "header primary" as being the entire system beginning at the exhaust port in the head to the termination point (collector) where the header primary tubes join and mate to the rest of the exhaust system. Research from various header manufacturer's websites would seem to indicate that the industry agrees with this definition.

 

Additionally, rule 5.3, C., 24) states that the +2 only applies to components which have been modified "downstream" from the "header primary". How can we be expected to fairly assess points if the term "header primary" is not clearly defined? You have to assume that we are required to use the industry standard definition of primary and go from there until we are provided with specific "official" guidance otherwise.

The term only became ambiguous when your manufacturer went "outside the box", and didn't use a standard exhaust manifold or header primary, and welded everything together, and then added/welded either a pre-cat, resonator, or Cat (whatever that big chamber is at the end near the flange is).

 

We have thought about doing this a hundred times (without the LOL) to avoid this type of controversy:

Looks to me like a failure to communicate. Just say exhaust mods are 5 points and be done with it.

Peter

 

Of course, the manufacturer can call the entire exhaust a "header" if it desires to. It could literally weld an entire single piece from the block to the back of the car that included welded in header primary, header secondaries, collector, pre-cat, cat's, mufflers, resonators, 02 bungs, piping, turn done, chrome tips, etc, and call the entire thing an "exhaust header". There is no restriction on what the manufacturer can do, or what it can call a part. It can call it an "exhaust elephant" if it wants to. It might be difficult or nearly impossible to install or service, but it is "possible". In fact, there are manufacturers that call sub-frames cross-members; others that call cross-members transmission mounts; and others that call cross-members "cradles". This is not about the nomenclature. It is about the modifications. We have just about thrown our hands in the air and made any exhaust mod +5 points. It would be simple, but wait from the crying from those with street cars with only a modification to a muffler, or maybe a cat-back. If anyone thinks that the rules are designed to give 15-25 hp to a car making about 180 hp with only a +2 point modification, you are mistaken.

 

The original rule for headers at +2 points, was and still is the same as modifying the exhaust manifold. It was meant for either "shorty" type headers plumbed into a BTM exhaust, or more likely as part of a +5 point exhaust package. The only reason that we did not have just a +5 point modification for "headers" was for those that just wanted to replace "shorty" or "primary" or "Manifold" headers for +2 points, but could leave the rest of the system stock (pass smog tests, not use an entire +5 points, etc.). So, short of re-writing the rules for exhaust completely, which is sounding like a good idea after reading this, I'm bringing up this rule from Page 1.

"If a performance modification is not specifically allowed by the rules, it is prohibited. A

permitted item cannot be modified to perform either a prohibited function, or the function of an

item that would otherwise be assessed points under the modification rules."

 

So, first, I agree with Simon's post on page 2 with the photos of the ? Integra exhaust manifold and the 2-1 exhaust piping taking points for both 23) & 24). And, assuming that the second photo is of a long-tube header that was BTM on a vehicle, I also agree with his assessment that under the rules, as written, it would only be a +2 points for 23). However, I also agree in this case with Ken's assessment that after the collector on this specific vehicle's "header", there is both exhaust piping and the "blob" that in no way, under any standard convention, be considered part of a "header". So, the above rule kicks in, that a part that "someone" is calling a "header" for +2 points, actually has the function of another item that would otherwise be assessed points under the modification rules. Nobody has said yet, exactly, what the "blob" is, but at the very least it is a pre-cat or resonator, and it is attached to piping. So, 23) kicks in. 24) kicks in. AND, if it is some type of Cat or pre-Cat, then 25) kicks in also.

 

It might be time to re-write the rules, though, and I don't think that the term "Primary" may be the one to use any longer. It was fine when manufacturers put either an exhaust manifold to a secondary piping or they put a manifold tubular header to a secondary, but now that they are starting to put on 4-1 headers, and even weld on ancillary parts of the normal exhaust system, we may need something else. Any time we make changes like this, though, if we do, it WILL have unintended consequences to those that have more basic mods that have been on the car for years for a certain amount of points (without anyone complaining that they are worth more points), that will cost more points due to the changes in wording.

 

There were essentially no changes to these rules for 2014. They are the same as in 2013, 2012, etc. We just pointed out that some have been missing that we look at what is on the BTM vehicle for our definition as to whether or not there have been "downstream" modifications to the exhaust. We do not look to the newly modified or aftermarket part.

[ja1217]

However, I also agree in this case with Ken's assessment that after the collector on this specific vehicle's "header", there is both exhaust piping and the "blob" that in no way, under any standard convention, be considered part of a "header". So, the above rule kicks in, that a part that "someone" is calling a "header" for +2 points, actually has the function of another item that would otherwise be assessed points under the modification rules. Nobody has said yet, exactly, what the "blob" is, but at the very least it is a pre-cat or resonator, and it is attached to piping. So, 23) kicks in. 24) kicks in. AND, if it is some type of Cat or pre-Cat, then 25) kicks in also.

 

The blob is a cat, which I was fully expecting to take the 1point from C.25 for removing/modifying. As for whether or not replacing the stock "header" (primaries, tubing, and cat), I understand that it is pretty much impossible to create a rule that can apply to all cars. I'll keep my eyes open for any changes to the rules regarding this, but will plan to spend my 3 remaining points elsewhere for the time being.

 

Thanks for weighing in!

[Greg G.]

Why is there no "09" Mustang GT Base Class? There is one for the V6 but not the GT.

 

Mustang GT ('07-'08) PTC 3356

Mustang GT ('10) PTC 3530

Do you have one?

 

There are plenty of cars that have not been classed since NASA decided in about 2009 or 2010 that it was not worth the time and effort to evaluate cars that may never complete with us. That is why it says that cars will be Provisionally classed as they enter competition if they are not listed.

 

There were not many '09's manufactured, so it has probably never been a issue. It looks like they are unchanged from '08, so we can add it, but in general, there is no reason to waste time with issues that don't have any effect on anyone.

[hhdinyuma]

Do you have one?

 

Greg, I am in the middle of building a car for Spec Iron that starts from body in white without any sort of manufacture date and no VIN. I will worry about classing in TT/PT when it is done...Cheers

[ILIKETODRIVE]

Thanks for the response Greg. You are correct that they are both factory OEM exhaust manifolds. 2-piece 4-2-1 for US ITR, 1-piece 4-1 for JDM ITR.

 

Surprisingly...I agree with your response. I understand the difficultly in assessing points between so So SO many different types of cars. I would love it if C.23) and/or C.24) were (eventually) reworded to make things less vague when dealing with a manifold that has about 4 inches of pipe between a collector and a pre-cat and then another few inches to a flange.

 

Complete what-if but my guess is: If it were originally manufactured to have "the blob" start immediately after the collector with 0 inches of piping and then again 0 inches of piping after "the blob" with a flange immediately attached to it, that it would only be +3 instead of +5.

[Greg G.]

Thanks for the response Greg. You are correct that they are both factory OEM exhaust manifolds. 2-piece 4-2-1 for US ITR, 1-piece 4-1 for JDM ITR.

 

Surprisingly...I agree with your response. I understand the difficultly in assessing points between so So SO many different types of cars. I would love it if C.23) and/or C.24) were (eventually) reworded to make things less vague when dealing with a manifold that has about 4 inches of pipe between a collector and a pre-cat and then another few inches to a flange.

 

Complete what-if but my guess is: If it were originally manufactured to have "the blob" start immediately after the collector with 0 inches of piping and then again 0 inches of piping after "the blob" with a flange immediately attached to it, that it would only be +3 instead of +5.

Probably, but it would require flanges on both sides of the "Cat blob" without additional piping.

 

There was a comment somewhere here about the Cat also in relation to the new note. Basically, if one were to not want to do any mods to the exhaust system except to improve flow through the Cat, the least controversial way to do it is to just gut the Cat. Removal of the Cat always will "tread" on whether or not there are exhaust mods for C.24).

[hhdinyuma]

Seem's pretty straightforward that if you replace the "header" in this particular example that you would take points for C23) and C25) since you remove the stock header and presumably part of the catalytic converter as well. It shouldn't make any difference where the catalytic converter is mounted, either before the end of the header or after it, you take points for the removal of part or all of the catalytic converter system. What is not clear is the reasoning for taking points for C24) as well since all you are changing is the bits in between the head(s) and the connection to the rest of the "downstream" exhaust components. C24) only addresses those components which are modified after the header.

 

Since this will probably not be the last exhaust system we see designed this way then perhaps a clear definition of what you mean by "header primary" is all that is needed to update the rules with current manufacturing processes and trends.

 

The shorty header example brought up by Greg is a good one and allows me to request clarification on a comment Ken B made earlier (paraphrased) about the only way to remove a CAT without taking points for C24) would be to cut the catalytic converter only out of the system and leave the rest of the system that connects it to the exhaust untouched. I have always believed that you could, for example, install a shorty header for +2, and install an aftermarket cat delete pipe that only removes the cats and is otherwise identical to the original pipes that were removed and only take +1 for it. Seems like the intent of accounting for the performance change obtained by removing the catalytic converter, whether good or bad, is covered.

 

I have to see a "15 to 25" HP increase with this mod alone to believe it. FWIW, I don't have this mod on my car and don't believe it is worth even the +2 the rules call for!! I jumped in here because of the confusion/uncertainty created for me about the Cat Delete issue and C24) points. I have only taken a +1 point addition for removing the stock "front pipe" that includes the catalytic converter and replacing it with a "test pipe" that is identical to the "front pipe" in every way except that the cat is missing. In my casew, Since I removed the stock muffler I am already taking C24) points as well but I have considered re-installing the muffler and using the 2 points for springs.

 

Greg, I think the intent of the rules regarding exhaust mods are pretty clear to all of us who take TT seriously. No one should expect a +2 point mod to allow an increase of 20% RWHP. It would help with the understanding if we all knew exactly what is meant by the term "header primary". Then those of us who are unfortunate enough to have funny blobs in our exhaust system can decide whether or not the correct point hit is worth it. If the manufacturer's have thrown a curve ball at the rules then maybe we need to take a swing at it.

[ja1217]

I have to see a "15 to 25" HP increase with this mod alone to believe it. FWIW, I don't have this mod on my car and don't believe it is worth even the +2 the rules call for!! I jumped in here because of the confusion/uncertainty created for me about the Cat Delete issue and C24) points. I have only taken a +1 point addition for removing the stock "front pipe" that includes the catalytic converter and replacing it with a "test pipe" that is identical to the "front pipe" in every way except that the cat is missing. In my casew, Since I removed the stock muffler I am already taking C24) points as well but I have considered re-installing the muffler and using the 2 points for springs.

 

Greg, I think the intent of the rules regarding exhaust mods are pretty clear to all of us who take TT seriously. No one should expect a +2 point mod to allow an increase of 20% RWHP. It would help with the understanding if we all knew exactly what is meant by the term "header primary". Then those of us who are unfortunate enough to have funny blobs in our exhaust system can decide whether or not the correct point hit is worth it. If the manufacturer's have thrown a curve ball at the rules then maybe we need to take a swing at it.

 

These are the best examples I can find for best performing headers:

 

JDL UEL Header +14whp : http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49985&highlight=drift-office

FT86 Speed Factory UEL +14whp: http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52835

HKS EL Header (w/ Intake and full exhaust) +22.5whp: http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49985&highlight=drift-office

 

Throw in E85 (which may be another bag of worms as far as rules are concerned, see the discussion in the FR-S thread in the TT forum) and many are seeing over 200whp

These example are either tuners or manufacturers, so take the results with a grain of salt.

[Greg G.]

Seem's pretty straightforward that if you replace the "header" in this particular example that you would take points for C23) and C25) since you remove the stock header and presumably part of the catalytic converter as well. It shouldn't make any difference where the catalytic converter is mounted, either before the end of the header or after it, you take points for the removal of part or all of the catalytic converter system. What is not clear is the reasoning for taking points for C24) as well since all you are changing is the bits in between the head(s) and the connection to the rest of the "downstream" exhaust components. C24) only addresses those components which are modified after the header.

 

Since this will probably not be the last exhaust system we see designed this way then perhaps a clear definition of what you mean by "header primary" is all that is needed to update the rules with current manufacturing processes and trends.

 

The shorty header example brought up by Greg is a good one and allows me to request clarification on a comment Ken B made earlier (paraphrased) about the only way to remove a CAT without taking points for C24) would be to cut the catalytic converter only out of the system and leave the rest of the system that connects it to the exhaust untouched. I have always believed that you could, for example, install a shorty header for +2, and install an aftermarket cat delete pipe that only removes the cats and is otherwise identical to the original pipes that were removed and only take +1 for it. Seems like the intent of accounting for the performance change obtained by removing the catalytic converter, whether good or bad, is covered.

 

I have to see a "15 to 25" HP increase with this mod alone to believe it. FWIW, I don't have this mod on my car and don't believe it is worth even the +2 the rules call for!! I jumped in here because of the confusion/uncertainty created for me about the Cat Delete issue and C24) points. I have only taken a +1 point addition for removing the stock "front pipe" that includes the catalytic converter and replacing it with a "test pipe" that is identical to the "front pipe" in every way except that the cat is missing. In my casew, Since I removed the stock muffler I am already taking C24) points as well but I have considered re-installing the muffler and using the 2 points for springs.

 

Greg, I think the intent of the rules regarding exhaust mods are pretty clear to all of us who take TT seriously. No one should expect a +2 point mod to allow an increase of 20% RWHP. It would help with the understanding if we all knew exactly what is meant by the term "header primary". Then those of us who are unfortunate enough to have funny blobs in our exhaust system can decide whether or not the correct point hit is worth it. If the manufacturer's have thrown a curve ball at the rules then maybe we need to take a swing at it.

Hal, the Cat delete modification was never intended to be a "stand-alone" modification. It was meant to be the next step up from Cat-back modification. However, there are some high-flow Cat's that would still allow a car to remain "smog" legal, and if installed correctly, would not change any of the BTM exhaust piping. This rule has been here, there, and back again. It has been more complicated, and less complicated, and was working fine for the past few years. In fact, the wording that you don't understand regarding the small amount of piping that connects the header to cat to the rest of the system is exactly what is needed to keep a Mod like the "header" upgrade for this vehicle from being a +2 point Mod.

 

So, it sounds like both the "blob" at the end of the header collector and the first part of the "Front pipe" are both Cats--Ie. two Cats on this vehicle. As I posted above, the only way to be sure that your Cat-only modification is +1 point, is to gut a BTM Cat, and put it back where it was. There is no doubt that nothing has been done to anything but the Cat. As Ken stated, cutting the Cat out, and welding in an exact replacement piece, is likely to satisfy the requirement, depending on the decision of where the Cat starts and ends vs. where exhaust piping starts and ends. I've seen some photos of a Perrin "Front pipe" replacement without a Cat, that would definitely NOT be considered a Cat-only mod. I have not seen what you have, but it is likely that you are correct to continue to take the points for exhaust. I say this because this statement of yours, "I have only taken a +1 point addition for removing the stock "front pipe" that includes the catalytic converter and replacing it with a "test pipe" that is identical to the "front pipe" in every way except that the cat is missing." sounds like the entire "Front pipe" is replaced, and that you are calling it a "test pipe". I'm guessing that if that is the case, unless the actual BTM pipe was used and the Cat was literally cut out as Ken stated, that your use of the term "identical" is probably "loose".

[hhdinyuma]

Greg, Thanks for taking the time to clearly explain the rule and how it should be applied. I will just gut my OEM cat and re-install it or maybe weld in a section of pipe that only bridges the gap where the actual cat is installed. If I go the latter route I will send you PIX/Diagrams of the proposed mod before I go to welding route to be sure it will pass scrutiny in the future. I agree that my "Test Pipe" definition is "loose" and I don't want there to be any doubt as to the legality of any mod I do...Cheers...

[hhdinyuma]

These are the best examples I can find for best performing headers:

 

JDL UEL Header +14whp : http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthre ... ift-office

Very misleading. The thread clearly discusses tuning but doesn't specify the sequence of tuning vs header install vs dyno pulls. The embedded video seems to show two dyno runs without tuning in between with and without the header and plots only a 2.4 RWHP increase. Probably accurate depiction of actual gain with the header and hardly 14+ RWHP!

FT86 Speed Factory UEL +14whp: http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52835

What can I say. I am just skeptical about these claims based on my research and the tuning that I have done on my car. None of the tuners I have dealt with who are experienced with the FT86 have seen the kinds of gains these guys claim under identical situations. YMMV!!

 

HKS EL Header (w/ Intake and full exhaust) +22.5whp: http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthre ... ift-office

This link goes to the JDL header in the first reference and not the HKS

 

This link has some dyno data and it all sounds pretty bleak. 1.4 to 3.6 RWHP gains on the dyno plots. $800.00+ just doesn't seem worth it to me.

 

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30980&page=3

 

I suggest having your car tuned by a good shop and then see what parts you still need. These cars respond EXTREMELY well to a proper tune especially if you use E85 fuel. Ask me how I know

 

P.S. This seems pretty specific to the FT86's and therefore off topic...Sorry

Edited January 1, 2014 by Guest

[ScottBell]

Greg and others,

 

I don't have a dog in this hunt because I've been running on a dyno reclass so long that I been ignoring the engine points for a long time.

 

If there is a rewrite in the works then how about breaking down the exhaust system into only two parts, although I think this has been said in a more round about way. Define a point that is the end of any converters in the exhaust system. Any modification upstream from that point is x points and anything downstream is y points. Seems like a simple way to handle all the crazy exhaust manifold/cat combinations we see today.

 

If this creates problems with specific cars then address those issues by changes to the base class.

[hhdinyuma]

If there is a rewrite in the works then how about breaking down the exhaust system into only two parts, although I think this has been said in a more round about way. Define a point that is the end of any converters in the exhaust system. Any modification upstream from that point is x points and anything downstream is y points. Seems like a simple way to handle all the crazy exhaust manifold/cat combinations we see today.

 

+1

[BlkGt3]

IF the cat delete mod was never supposed to be a stand alone Mod then it should never have been put in the rules as a 1 point mod!!!! If I put in a piece of pipe in place of the Cat and it bolts in as an exact replacement to the cat it, IMHO meets the Cat delete rules as written.

 

Peter

[kbrew8991]

Don't make me the poster child for tight interpretation, just regurgitating what was passed down to directors last season when this came up

 

Greg - suggestion for the re-write: Let's use the exit point of the header collector(s) as the cutoff point for C23. And maybe add a little bit of verbiage in C23, 24, and 25 to indicate that changing even 0.01" length and/or diameter of main exhaust piping downstream of said collector, even if incedental in installing a common bolt on part, will trigger C24.

[hhdinyuma]

I suggest just doing away with C25). Make C23) and C24) both +3. Include a reference to removal of the catalytic coverter or components thereof in the body of both rules if necessary. Define the terms to clearly identify where the header stops and the rest of the exhaust starts. Done! This allows those that need to, to keep their cats and add headers if they wish. If not this, then any method that clears up what you want us to take points for,

 

There is no way that every single competitor will understand the three rules the way they are currently written, especially since we do not have access to an un-encoded version of the rulebook. It sounds like, from Greg's responses, that these 3 rules were written to cover a few very specific examples that were important at the time but might have been overcome by other developments since then. I haven't seen a catalytic converter with a flange on each end since my 76 Cougar days. I am sure they are out there, I just haven't seen any. I estimate an awful lot of cars have been modified by removing the cat(s) and installing a length of pipe to fill the gap, add +1 to their classing sheet, and truly believe that they were 100% legal to the rules. And I think it is fair to assume that most of us thought we were in compliance with the spirit of the rule as well, since the goal of performing the mod is to remove the cat and gain/lose any advantage that the mod might provide..

 

At the end of the day, we all just want the officials to let us (the competitors) know how to do things right. While I am sure the notes that were added were well intentioned, the addition of the terms "in almost all cases" and "in most cases" just made the situation much worse. Since this whole series is set up to allow the competitors to class their own vehicles, these terms seem inappropriate since they allow far too much room for individual interpretation. I can say with some certainty that many of us will consider our own situation to be the case that falls outside of almost all the others.

Edited January 2, 2014 by Guest

[ILIKETODRIVE]

If there is a rewrite in the works then how about breaking down the exhaust system into only two parts, although I think this has been said in a more round about way. Define a point that is the end of any converters in the exhaust system. Any modification upstream from that point is x points and anything downstream is y points. Seems like a simple way to handle all the crazy exhaust manifold/cat combinations we see today.

+2

IF the cat delete mod was never supposed to be a stand alone Mod then it should never have been put in the rules as a 1 point mod!!!! If I put in a piece of pipe in place of the Cat and it bolts in as an exact replacement to the cat it, IMHO meets the Cat delete rules as written.

Could not agree more with this. If the actual purpose of a rule/point mod is to only piggyback with 1 or 2 other rules/point mods, why have it be its own rule/point mod and not just be piggyback with 1 or both?

 

IMO it should be written into the back-end of both point mods (header/rest of exhaust) with a stipulation that you only have to take the +1 for cat replacement/deletion/etc once and not with both if doing both.

I estimate an awful lot of cars have been modified by removing the cat(s) and installing a length of pipe to fill the gap, add +1 to their classing sheet, and truly believe that they were 100% legal to the rules. And I think it is fair to assume that most of us thought we were in compliance with the spirit of the rule as well, since the goal of performing the mod is to remove the cat and gain/lose any advantage that the mod might provide...

100% agree with this. I bet nearly 75% of points cars are doing this.

Edited January 2, 2014 by Guest

[BlkGt3]

If there is a rewrite in the works then how about breaking down the exhaust system into only two parts, although I think this has been said in a more round about way. Define a point that is the end of any converters in the exhaust system. Any modification upstream from that point is x points and anything downstream is y points. Seems like a simple way to handle all the crazy exhaust manifold/cat combinations we see today.

+2

 

IF the cat delete mod was never supposed to be a stand alone Mod then it should never have been put in the rules as a 1 point mod!!!! If I put in a piece of pipe in place of the Cat and it bolts in as an exact replacement to the cat it, IMHO meets the Cat delete rules as written.

Could not agree more with this. If the actual purpose of a rule/point mod is to only piggyback with 1 or 2 other rules/point mods, why have it be its own rule/point mod and not just be piggyback with 1 or both?

 

IMO it should be written into the back-end of both point mods (header/rest of exhaust) with a stipulation that you only have to take the +1 for cat replacement/deletion/etc once and not with both if doing both.

 

I estimate an awful lot of cars have been modified by removing the cat(s) and installing a length of pipe to fill the gap, add +1 to their classing sheet, and truly believe that they were 100% legal to the rules. And I think it is fair to assume that most of us thought we were in compliance with the spirit of the rule as well, since the goal of performing the mod is to remove the cat and gain/lose any advantage that the mod might provide...

100% agree with this. I bet nearly 75% of points cars are doing this.

 

My take on cleaning up the exhaust? Keep it as a max of 5 points, none of that 6 point BS.

 

Cat back is 2 points.

Anything else is 5 points which would include any combination of the following headers, hi flow cats, cat delete and cat back exhaust. Should remove any ? about pipe sizes, is the location the same etc. Make it simple in tech.

 

Peter

[ILIKETODRIVE]

My take on cleaning up the exhaust? Keep it as a max of 5 points, none of that 6 point BS.

Agreed...which is why I stated to tag the "cat" +1 on both but make it known that if you do the entire exhaust system it only gets tagged with one and not both.

 

Basically, here is my reasoning: If a certain vehicle will only net 0.2whp from a complete exhaust change but net 10whp from a header and cat change with the stock exhaust, wouldn't you rather do that? Then down the road if that certain vehicle wanted to do the entire exhaust change, it would only be another +2 for a total of +5. (And my argument goes the other way that if a certain vehicle benefited 10whp from cat and exhaust change but only 0.2whp from header change, it would be +3 for cat/exhaust and then another +2 later if they did the manifold...which is how I thought all of this worked out in the first place lol)

[kbrew8991]

It's exactly how it did work, does work, and will work. Where the disagreement lies is what labels we're wanting to put on what parts and where we're defining where one mod line stops and the other starts.

[ILIKETODRIVE]

My opinion (and my theory) is this:

 

I feel NASA shouldn't dictate what exactly is defined as what up-front because so many different types of cars have completely different engineering in their exhaust. The burden of proof as to what was replaced and how should be on the competitor and then interpreted by NASA. If they don't want to show proof as to what and how then they should be given/told +5 until they prove otherwise.

 

Break it down as pre-cat/cat/post-cat (+2/+1/+2). If the cat does not have a flange to separate it from the header then replacing it would be +3 (like the FRS/BRZ). If the cat does not have flanges at all and the exhaust is one giant piece (like Greg G proposed could be possible) then it is a *wart* for that vehicle and any/all exhaust changes yield +5. (And all of us are smart enough to know that manufacturers place cats as close to the engine as possible for efficiency so don't bring up some silly "What if the header is attached to the cat but the cat is back by the muffler?" scenario because we know it's not true and deserves the *wart* +5 anyways lol)

Edited January 2, 2014 by Guest

[BlkGt3]

It's exactly how it did work, does work, and will work. Where the disagreement lies is what labels we're wanting to put on what parts and where we're defining where one mod line stops and the other starts.

 

 

But you don't define it clearly. To many ifs left up to interpretation of the regions TT director. I really thought the old wording did just fine.

 

Peter

[seank]

Or just let anyone do anything they want (engine and weight mods) as long as the hp to weight ratio is in line. It is far difficult to say the worthiness of any engine mod to x points for all cars.

 

One mod adds 10hp while another gets nothing for the same points.

[Greg G.]

IF the cat delete mod was never supposed to be a stand alone Mod then it should never have been put in the rules as a 1 point mod!!!! If I put in a piece of pipe in place of the Cat and it bolts in as an exact replacement to the cat it, IMHO meets the Cat delete rules as written.

 

Peter

Peter, it might. It depends on how the Cat was originally placed into the system.