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Initial suspension set up opinions


Lucid Moments

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Wrecked my last car at RA last September. Have bought a new car, but according to the previous owner it was set up to be very tail happy and I would prefer a car that is a little more balanced. First event is going to be at Barber Feb 15 and 16. I would like to get a good baseline to start from.

 

Car is a 1991 Acura Integra RS. It currently has Ground Control coilovers with Koni Yellow shocks. Springs are 18 Kg/mm front and 14 Kg/mm rear and yes I know that isn't really a proper measurement but it is what the previous owner told me. It has a stock appearing front anti-sway bar that measures approximately 61mm in diameter and an ASR 32mm rear anti-sway bar. I have not had a chance to weigh it yet. I am considering just ditching the rear anti-sway entirely, but that may be too drastic.

 

Any and all suggesions would be welcome.

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Hey Mike!

 

So for starters those spring rates are 1008 lb/in in the front and 784 lb/in in the rear. I'm going to politely call BS on a stock front bar measuring 61 mm in diameter! That's bigger than some of the bars we use on the Cup cars!

 

I'd say that's a fairly stiff front spring, which would make it less tail-happy. But that's also a pretty big rear bar, which will promote tail-happiness. If there is any adjustment in the rear bar you can start it full soft and see how it feels. That comes with a caveat, which is depending on how the link angle changes as you change arm holes, it can change the motion ratio enough to counteract the lever arm change you're trying to make. Basically that means that even though you think you're running it stiffer, it might not actually be, and vice versa. You can also just take it off like you suggested, in which case you can be pretty confident it won't oversteer too much. I would keep the bar handy that weekend in case removing it turns the car into a plow and you want to throw it back on, as it would be a pretty huge change.

 

I'm a bit out of the loop on what people are running as far as spring rates these days, but I feel that the front may be a bit stiff. It won't be bad on a smooth track, but somewhere with a rough surface or bumps, or if you have to get over the curbing, it may upset the car a bit. The rear rate isn't too bad, in my opinion.

 

I'm curious to hear how it goes, drop me a line when you get a chance to drive it!

 

Mike

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Mike, thanks for the reply. Good to see you on here again. Maybe if we get you started on here we can get you out racing again.

 

Okay, first off you are right on the front bar. How about 24mm and let us not discuss how I made that error. It was my error though. The rear bar does not have any adjustment to it, the same company does sell bars of the same diameter with different wall thickness (I just learned this) I do not know what wall thickness I have, and the car just got taken somewhere so I can't measure it right now, but the options are 0.095" 0.120" 0.188" and 0.250" wall thickness. If I have the 0.250" then I wonder how much difference it will make going down to the 0.095". I am contacting the manufacturer to find out and to find out costs.

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i run a H2 90 DA LS but a lot on my set up is different, also always changing and upgrading. would be hard to compare because of location and tracks. depends on your driving style too.

i run on crappy k sports with higher rate springs that stock but ksports wont handle more. you have a better rear bar for sure but my spring rates are swapped. anyway test and tune to see what works for you.

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i run a H2 90 DA LS but a lot on my set up is different, also always changing and upgrading. would be hard to compare because of location and tracks. depends on your driving style too.

i run on crappy k sports with higher rate springs that stock but ksports wont handle more. you have a better rear bar for sure but my spring rates are swapped. anyway test and tune to see what works for you.

 

That's what I am going to do. Get a fairly nominal alignment and then run it and see how she does.

 

After two e-mails to the contact address on their webpage never heard back from ASR so if you think about doing business with them take that into consideration. They apparently don't like to support what they sell.

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  • 2 weeks later...

It seems like those spring rates are opposite of what they should be. I run 900# rear 780# front with a similar adjustable rear bar and a stock SI front bar on a Civic. 2.5 - 3 camber rear 3.5 - 4 front. 0 toe rear 1/32 out front. It works pretty good with minor adjustments for tires and tracks. Somebody else will give you an entirely different set up, but this one works good for me.

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those spring rates are 1008 lb/in in the front and 784 lb/in in the rear

 

Do not even attempt to run a front stiff setup on a Honda. You will DIE! Just ask anyone on the Internet.

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It seems like those spring rates are opposite of what they should be. I run 900# rear 780# front with a similar adjustable rear bar and a stock SI front bar on a Civic. 2.5 - 3 camber rear 3.5 - 4 front. 0 toe rear 1/32 out front. It works pretty good with minor adjustments for tires and tracks. Somebody else will give you an entirely different set up, but this one works good for me.

 

Mikey - I'll PM you with an e-mail contact at ASR that I used when I bought a subframe brace from them. I've heard that the hollow 32mm 0.095" thick ASR bar is approx the same stiffness as a 26mm solid bar. I did a quick search in the Road Racing/Autocross & Time Attack forum in Honda-Tech, and found http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=3185990&highlight=ASR+rear+sway+bar and there may be addition info.

 

Vic - on my car (also EK hatch), I ended up with 1000# rear and 750# front springs, with my sway bars being 24mm front and rear, with the rear one being an adjustable ASR bar, so my front to rear spring rate difference (250 lbs vs 120 lbs) is larger than your car, but your rear sway bar is a lot stiffer, so I guess that balances the car. I recently adjusted my front toe (from slight toe in to toe out), and was just wondering about whan you mentioned that you're using 1/32" toe out - is that total or per side? What I'm getting at, is that when measuring for toe, if the measurement at the leading edge is say 67 1/8" and the rear edge is 67", then I would take that as 1/8" total toe out, or 1/16" per side. Am I interpreting that? When people usually mention toe measurements, is it total or per side? Do you know if most of the HC racers use zero toe in the front, or slight toe out? Whatis the max you've heard of being used on a HC car? Thanks!! - Jim

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Couple of notes. What a couple of you were saying about the spring rates made me question my memory of what the previous owner told me and I am glad I did. I just checked with him and I had them backwards. So they are 784 in/lb front and 1008 rear. Also got under the car and measured the sway bar wall thickness and I have the thickest one they sell. I have a new e-mail into ASR to see what it is going to take to get a new bar with a thinner wall. That should make a big difference as I can go from a 0.250" to 0.095" wall thickness and it should be relatively easy and cheap I hope.

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why dont you drive it before you make changes?

 

That is what I am going to end up doing, but from what I understand from the previous owner it is set up to be tail happy and I am pretty sure I am going to have to make changes.

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Couple of notes. What a couple of you were saying about the spring rates made me question my memory of what the previous owner told me and I am glad I did. I just checked with him and I had them backwards. So they are 784 in/lb front and 1008 rear. Also got under the car and measured the sway bar wall thickness and I have the thickest one they sell. I have a new e-mail into ASR to see what it is going to take to get a new bar with a thinner wall. That should make a big difference as I can go from a 0.250" to 0.095" wall thickness and it should be relatively easy and cheap I hope.

Speedway Engineering has some good info about these types of bars and their spring rates. I have their 1 1/4" x.188 wall bar with a 8-12" adjustable arm and it adds some serious spring rate. http://www.1speedway.com/Swaybars.htm

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