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ctbimmer

Track time at Barber

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ctbimmer

With 3 race groups, there is significantly less track time per group than is typically given. This looks like 55 mins Saturday and 40 Sunday, total 95. If memory serves last year would have been at least 20/15/30 and 15/35 for total of 115 minutes.

 

I count approx 134 racers. DE shapes up as 25/25/17/32 total 99 DEers.

 

On Saturday DE1/2 get 3x20 and Sunday 4x20 total 140 minutes.

DE3/4 get 4x20 both days total 160 minutes

- some of these sessions are combined but that's still the minutes.

 

Now more hot track time would be the best answer but if barber won't provide then I submit the allocation of track time is skewed.

 

Perhaps with this joint event the success has overtaken capacity but the entry fee is steep per unit of track time. NASA, what can be done?

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Scott G.

If the racers all pay an additional $20 at registration would that be enough to keep the track open an additional 30min (to 5:30)? That would mean 35min races for all 3 groups.

 

The problem with that idea, I think, is that a lot of the racers wouldn't find out before the event, then they'd get pissed at Registration when asked for an additional $20 (or whatever).

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kbrew8991

5 more mins of FCY time to retrieve busted Mustangs in Thunder and errant Thunder Roadsters in Lightning sounds fun

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Brian944

There was a similar thread in regard to track time at Barber a couple days ago I was following. Don't see it now- maybe nuked in a spam purge?

 

Curious about it, though, as racing now has the same entry fee as HPDE- last year it seems like we paid $50 or so less per event because we had less track time.

 

When I saw entry fees were the same as HPDE in 2014 I figured there would be an increased amount of track time for racers compared to last year- not looking that way so far.

 

The schedule isn't normally finalized until a week or so before the event so hopefully there will be adjustments...

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Scott G.

 

Curious about it, though, as racing now has the same entry fee as HPDE- last year it seems like we paid $50 or so less per event because we had less track time.

 

When I saw entry fees were the same as HPDE in 2014 I figured there would be an increased amount of track time for racers compared to last year- not looking that way so far.

 

Might be early to draw conclusions re. cost. This is not a "business as usual" event. It's been a long time since SE region went to Barber and this is the first ever combined event. Also, the cost of renting different tracks varies a lot, and then an estimate has to be made re. # of participants in order to set prices. Has to be hard to guess how many DE'rs will want to spend a Feb weekend near Birmingham. Also, Barber is supposed to be an unusually expensive track. I once overheard that NASA-SE generally makes a profit only at Road Atlanta because it draws the largest crowd.

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Firebird Man

Barber is expensive to rent, track time is tightly controlled, length of track dictates number of cars per group.

A lot more goes into an event there than is generally known. A lot goes on behind the scenes just making it happen.

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Jim P.
...When I saw entry fees were the same as HPDE in 2014 I figured there would be an increased amount of track time for racers ...

Folks,

We came to the conclusion that the majority of the cost for our events is all of the extra overhead needed to host races. HPDE doesn't need $3k scales, $11k T&S equipment, $1000 in trophies, insurance costs, hotels & food for all of the race tech officials, timing officials, extra grid workers, etc.

 

We broke it down to cost per minute for HPDE vs Racing and realized that it was time to increase the fees for racing to cover all of the extra costs strictly associated with racing at our events. It was not an easy decision to make, but we are squeezed in the middle.

 

For all of the other SE events we will be able to offer longer races, but for this one our hands are tied. The alternative would've been to limit the # of entries and charge more per entry, but that would've started a whole different thread about "How expensive the entry fees are".

 

It's all about compromise, we did the best with what we had to work with. If anyone can come up with a solution that is fair and equitable to everyone then by all means email it to me - jimpantas (at ) nasa-se

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Brian944
...When I saw entry fees were the same as HPDE in 2014 I figured there would be an increased amount of track time for racers ...

Folks,

We came to the conclusion that the majority of the cost for our events is all of the extra overhead needed to host races. HPDE doesn't need $3k scales, $11k T&S equipment, $1000 in trophies, insurance costs, hotels & food for all of the race tech officials, timing officials, extra grid workers, etc.

 

We broke it down to cost per minute for HPDE vs Racing and realized that it was time to increase the fees for racing to cover all of the extra costs strictly associated with racing at our events. It was not an easy decision to make, but we are squeezed in the middle.

 

For all of the other SE events we will be able to offer longer races, but for this one our hands are tied. The alternative would've been to limit the # of entries and charge more per entry, but that would've started a whole different thread about "How expensive the entry fees are".

 

It's all about compromise, we did the best with what we had to work with. If anyone can come up with a solution that is fair and equitable to everyone then by all means email it to me - jimpantas (at ) nasa-se

 

Thanks for the insight, Jim- I would have assumed DE-1 would have had the highest cost per minute.

Longer races at the other events works for me!

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kbrew8991

yeah I guess even with factoring in instructor and classroom costs that the extra equipment, officials, etc for racing still cover it. Interesting breakdown Jim!

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laze1

not to worry, all the Heavy hi- HP cars will run out of brakes fairly quickly

 

So short runs with a full track is best...

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TowDawg

I understand the dilemma, as NASA is a business for Jim and it needs to be treated as such.

I do know the daily cost of Barber and insurance, but not what it costs to house and feed all the workers. I do have to question the racing expenses though. Not the amount of money of the items, but the fact that these should not be re-occurring cost. Once that money is spent, those purchases should be good for years of use, so in the long run, I would think the HPDE classes actually cost more to put on.

With this being the first time at Barber in a long time (and a joint event), I'm sure the pricing was set with the expectation that sign-up numbers would not be anywhere near as high as they are. Now that the interest has been shown, I would hope a future event here would be able to offer lower entry fees.

 

Jim, if you're paying $1k for those mugs, I'll find them for you and make you a deal at $995!

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Fred Crawford
I understand the dilemma, as NASA is a business for Jim and it needs to be treated as such.

I do know the daily cost of Barber and insurance, but not what it costs to house and feed all the workers. I do have to question the racing expenses though. Not the amount of money of the items, but the fact that these should not be re-occurring cost. Once that money is spent, those purchases should be good for years of use, so in the long run, I would think the HPDE classes actually cost more to put on.

With this being the first time at Barber in a long time (and a joint event), I'm sure the pricing was set with the expectation that sign-up numbers would not be anywhere near as high as they are. Now that the interest has been shown, I would hope a future event here would be able to offer lower entry fees.

 

Jim, if you're paying $1k for those mugs, I'll find them for you and make you a deal at $995!

 

 

My guess he meant the " event" food beer and trophys,,,, oh the cost of the trophy girls...

 

Deere

Bean Counter

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supermac

Just checked the schedule.

No warm up, no qual, no practice on Sunday for the race group?

Please tell me this is a typo.

No offense and if that is the case I doubt I will come.

SMH

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Brian E.

Did a little math based on the "per minute" theory using current registration list and track time schedule:

 

nasa.jpg

 

Using the revenue/minute theory, the actual entry costs/minute for the alloted track time are $615.13 for racers and $277.82 for DE.

 

Under an equal registration number (99 for race and DE), there is still a diference of $166.69 in revenue/minute.

 

Frankly I don't subscribe to the revenue/minute theory. We are all there, we are all ready, and we all paid. The fees are the same, the location is the same, the purpose is the same. There is a total cost and a total revenue for the event. As someone who came through the DE ranks, put in my time at the track and countless hours and dollars on the car, I feel like i am subsidizing HPDE. It should be the other way around. Racing is hard, expensive and time consuming. It appears my reward is to be nickel and dimed and told that my revenue/minute warrants less than equal track time.

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supermac
Did a little math based on the "per minute" theory using current registration list and track time schedule:

 

nasa.jpg

 

Using the revenue/minute theory, the actual entry costs/minute for the alloted track time are $615.13 for racers and $277.82 for DE.

 

Under an equal registration number (99 for race and DE), there is still a diference of $166.69 in revenue/minute.

 

Frankly I don't subscribe to the revenue/minute theory. We are all there, we are all ready, and we all paid. The fees are the same, the location is the same, the purpose is the same. There is a total cost and a total revenue for the event. As someone who came through the DE ranks, put in my time at the track and countless hours and dollars on the car, I feel like i am subsidizing HPDE. It should be the other way around. Racing is hard, expensive and time consuming. It appears my reward is to be nickel and dimed and told that my revenue/minute warrants less than equal track time.

 

 

Where is the like button for this post.

 

Well said

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Fred Crawford

I would like to say, that I am not going to Barber. I wish I was, there is not a better facility. It is only due to work issues, and the travel time to get there. Having said that, there has been times , I wished I have some extra track time. Maybe more practice or longer racing. Once in a while I thought the cost was a little high. I have run with many groups and clubs.

But guys, Nasa is a business. Over the many years I have been a part of Nasa, running several regions, I have found it to be a great group of people and the best value out there. If you want to break out minutes and dollars go ahead. That science doesn't work. This is a complicated business. I will say I am not taking any sides here. When I don't like something, believe it or not, I just don't give my money or participation. I would give that advice here. Maybe run another group. There is nothing wrong with that. Jim Pantas will understand.

 

Regards

Fred Crawford

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TowDawg

I definitely agree it's a business, so I 100% understand that $/min would be cheaper (cost to the participant) for HPDE. It makes sense because, from the business side, NASA is hoping that the HPDE people end up becoming racers. I'm sure the racers are better solidified, long-term "customers" that HPDE participants. You want to grow the business, that's a pretty good model.

 

I don't have an issue with HPDE getting more track time than racers. I understood that getting into racing would mean less track time than HPDE. The "rush per minute" is a hell of lot more when racing than in HPDE. Personally I prefer the higher intensity for less time than the lower intensity HPDE track time. I just wasn't expecting the very low track time for Barber, but also wasn't expecting to see the sheer number of entries for Barber.

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supermac

I understand the business side of it and I understand choices need to be made. However not even having a warm up on Sunday is an absolute joke not to mention a safety issue.

I come from fairly long relationship with NASA in the rocky mountain region. We get 4 races per weekend plus warmup on Sunday so I know it can be done.

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Firebird Man
I understand the business side of it and I understand choices need to be made. However not even having a warm up on Sunday is an absolute joke not to mention a safety issue.

I come from fairly long relationship with NASA in the rocky mountain region. We get 4 races per weekend plus warmup on Sunday so I know it can be done.

 

If you noticed the old vs new schedule you'll see the 15 minute Sunday warm up time was added to the race time to make them 40 minute races instead of the original 25 minutes.

 

It was the only way to get a 40 minute race in, which is what most wanted.

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Fred Crawford
I understand the business side of it and I understand choices need to be made. However not even having a warm up on Sunday is an absolute joke not to mention a safety issue.

I come from fairly long relationship with NASA in the rocky mountain region. We get 4 races per weekend plus warmup on Sunday so I know it can be done.

 

I aggree I like the warmup/practice also, but I get out voted, thats how it works.

 

Its a long haul out to the Rockies,

 

Deere

Waving

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supermac
I understand the business side of it and I understand choices need to be made. However not even having a warm up on Sunday is an absolute joke not to mention a safety issue.

I come from fairly long relationship with NASA in the rocky mountain region. We get 4 races per weekend plus warmup on Sunday so I know it can be done.

 

If you noticed the old vs new schedule you'll see the 15 minute Sunday warm up time was added to the race time to make them 40 minute races instead of the original 25 minutes.

 

It was the only way to get a 40 minute race in, which is what most wanted.

 

Not to be a dick and I'm curious who wanted a 40 minute race?

Most of these races are decided in the first 10 minutes.

You just spend the next 30 minutes driving around....whoopee.

If no warmup maybe you should have 2-20 minute races?

Again, this schedule is terribly disappointing.

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Jim P.

A few years ago it was suggested that because of the fun everybody has on Saturday nights at our events that they forgo practice and just have qualifying and a longer race on Sundays. The majority of our racers felt that Sunday practice was a waste of time, brakes, tires and fuel. We noticed that less than 10% of the racers participated in Sunday practice so we did away with it. We have been doing just that for a couple of years now.

 

Last year, a suggestion to eliminate qualifying and just have a longer race earlier in the day on Sundays was made to us. We tried it at VIR in October and Road Atlanta in December and it was an instant hit with the racers at those events. It was suggested for this event, we had our Series Directors poll their Series racers who had already signed up and it was approved almost unanimously.

 

Thanks for the laugh thru your simple calculations about an event, every time I see them it reminds me of the scene from

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Fred Crawford

Jim , that was funny, I had forgot about that scene.

 

It is a good point that all races are decided in the first 10 minutes, I should of just pulled over and saved money. Let me make that point at the next racers meeting...... cain't wait for that

 

Deere

Learning

Everyday

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supermac
Jim , that was funny, I had forgot about that scene.

 

It is a good point that all races are decided in the first 10 minutes, I should of just pulled over and saved money. Let me make that point at the next racers meeting...... cain't wait for that

 

Deere

Learning

Everyday

 

Since you have it all figured out. Why don't you tell me how many races need 40 minutes to decide?

 

I love the flip answers on here to address paying customer concerns.

 

smh

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Fred Crawford
Jim , that was funny, I had forgot about that scene.

 

It is a good point that all races are decided in the first 10 minutes, I should of just pulled over and saved money. Let me make that point at the next racers meeting...... cain't wait for that

 

Deere

Learning

Everyday

 

Since you have it all figured out. Why don't you tell me how many races need 40 minutes to decide?

 

I love the flip answers on here to address paying customer concerns.

 

smh

 

I am a paying customer too. I would think that most class races are fought to the bitter end. Many of mine have been and have watched many of other ones from the paddock. My best win ever was against a cup car at Road Atlanta.... made the winning pass under the bridge, last lap, to take the checker......... that "10 miniute" was just a silly statement, IMHO.

 

And please dont confuse flip with smartarse. It will insult me.

 

deere

urine

Edited by Guest

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