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Track time at Barber


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Firebird Man

Since you have it all figured out. Why don't you tell me how many races need 40 minutes to decide?

 

smh

 

You haven't seen many SE races have you?

 

Thunder Roadster is to the wire every race, Spec E the same, many others go down to the last turn.

I've won and lost races due to fuel, tire and brake attrition, 40 minute races in 500 hp 3400 lb cars ain't no short sprint.

Matt started in the third split and raced through the entire AI field in the second and then the Cayman Porsches in the first to win Thunder overall, took him 40 minutes to finally catch and pass the leader with one to go. The entire race was under green, most awesome drive to the front I've ever seen.

 

With 20 minute races all it takes is one off to spend most of your race loping around at 35 mph for maybe 2 laps of green at the end.

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10 minutes was probably an exaggeration. And I think 40 minute races are usually an exercise in lapping.

I am traveling from Denver, renting a race car, renting a regular car, hotel, track time on Friday etc. I am all in, as I am sure most are and I can tell you if it wasn't for my commitment to the guy I am renting the car from I would not come. I can guarantee it will be my last trip to this region.

This schedule could be better and everybody knows it.

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Fred Crawford
10 minutes was probably an exaggeration. And I think 40 minute races are usually an exercise in lapping.

I am traveling from Denver, renting a race car, renting a regular car, hotel, track time on Friday etc. I am all in, as I am sure most are and I can tell you if it wasn't for my commitment to the guy I am renting the car from I would not come. I can guarantee it will be my last trip to this region.

This schedule could be better and everybody knows it.

 

If your flying, hope its a round trip ticket

 

Deere

Season

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Since you have it all figured out. Why don't you tell me how many races need 40 minutes to decide?

 

smh

 

You haven't seen many SE races have you?

 

Thunder Roadster is to the wire every race, Spec E the same, many others go down to the last turn.

I've won and lost races due to fuel, tire and brake attrition, 40 minute races in 500 hp 3400 lb cars ain't no short sprint.

Matt started in the third split and raced through the entire AI field in the second and then the Cayman Porsches in the first to win Thunder overall, took him 40 minutes to finally catch and pass the leader with one to go. The entire race was under green, most awesome drive to the front I've ever seen.

 

With 20 minute races all it takes is one off to spend most of your race loping around at 35 mph for maybe 2 laps of green at the end.

 

I actually have (2012 toy run and we got a warm up that day)

what I remember were a whole lot of laps at 35mph cleaning up a couple of accidents. Just a couple of laps of green at the end to decide the finish, which was hopelessly out of reach for second until the yellow flags bunched the field. 2-20 minute races would have had way more excitement IMHO. Anyway I understand it is the way it is done in the east. I will hand my money over and be a good boy.

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We are still more than two weeks away and people are getting bunched up. Anyone that has been racing the last couple of years has seen the race groups be small due to the economy and other factors. Now our first event of 2014, we have so many racers that we had to have a Blitz group. If there were less racers then after adding the Blitz time back this thread would not exist.

 

So basically, people are graphing and putting up charts on the excitement per dollar. People ---- we are racing--- the fact that we are racing means that money is not that important or else you would stay home.

 

As a wise man said (Deere), "use your money to make a point". If you don't like how things are done in the Southeast then stay home. Southerners are always friendly but like anything else there is a limit to crap.

 

SuperMac - I would recommend DE4 for you. Lots of track time. If I thought that only the first 10 minutes was all there was to racing, I sure a majority of us would not have spent the amount of time and money we do to race.

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Fred Crawford

This, my fans...... brings a tears to my eyes. Me, the Deere being quoted " in a positive way", finally some respect However, I take issue with the point..... that there is a limit to crap......

 

Deere

Fullofit

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Firebird Man
2-20 minute races would have had way more excitement IMHO. .

I've run the dual 20 minute races at VIR, it was fun but over way too quickly. Only 7 laps.

 

I like the 40's, that's a serious amount of time to race, while the 20's have the go for it now appeal and you get to do it twice.

But, I wouldn't like racing nothing but 20's every event. I like a longer races, especially on Sunday.

 

In a perfect world where we could pick our own schedule I'd take two 20's on some Saturday's and a 40 minute on Sunday.

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Fred Crawford
over in the first 10...just cruise around:

 

QKYgzc1mcRI

 

I guess I will have to commend you for a good save, however .... you are driving a Vette.. so you were not really saving anything, now if it was a Porsche...WOW.. GREAT JOB

 

And I was thinking... Why is it that after 10 minutes of the start of the 24hr of Daytona the parking lots are empty..... I know.. the race is over

 

Deer

Thoughts

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Did a little math based on the "per minute" theory using current registration list and track time schedule:

 

nasa.jpg

 

Using the revenue/minute theory, the actual entry costs/minute for the alloted track time are $615.13 for racers and $277.82 for DE.

 

Under an equal registration number (99 for race and DE), there is still a diference of $166.69 in revenue/minute.

 

Frankly I don't subscribe to the revenue/minute theory. We are all there, we are all ready, and we all paid. The fees are the same, the location is the same, the purpose is the same. There is a total cost and a total revenue for the event. As someone who came through the DE ranks, put in my time at the track and countless hours and dollars on the car, I feel like i am subsidizing HPDE. It should be the other way around. Racing is hard, expensive and time consuming. It appears my reward is to be nickel and dimed and told that my revenue/minute warrants less than equal track time.

 

This is funny to me owning my own business.

 

Revenue calculations are useless and misleading. Like a manager that tripled your business but at the end of the year you didn't make a single extra dollar because he got more business by discounting everything under the sun. Everyone worked 3 times harder and no one made any more money. What is important is NET PROFIT which is REVENUE - COST.

 

I've been to a lot of track days with only DE. They run 1/2 the corner workers or less, no roll back, no ambulance, insurance that is 1/3 the cost as timed events with racing, and they ran the whole event with one person for Race Control.

 

Running racers requires a full contingent of corner workers, medical and EV staff, timing officials, tech officials, equipment, someone to organize all the drivers/forms, someone to setup and run the network to provide live timing and results, as Jim mentioned hotels and food for all these people, a rig full of equipment to hold the event including gas to travel, plus backup officials in training for multiple positions.

 

I just did a local 1 day event. Cost me $240, gave me 2 hours of track time. They ran no roll back or EV, had one person on grid and one on the track radio (we run 5 in the tower during races, 3-5 on grid, 1-2 for tech, plus Julie who does about 5 jobs), 4 corner workers (we run 9 at the same track), no equipment to speak of, etc.

 

I have never been so bored in all my life. After years of racing, running laps is pretty boring, which brings me to my second point. You can't compare DE with racing in terms of just track time for $. No racer I know would say DE was nearly as much fun as racing. So if racing is more fun, why shouldn't it cost more?

 

With that said the cost is absolutely more for racers and the value offered I would argue is better (since none of us are running back to DE's just because they are cheaper and have more track time). In order to have a net profit that is workable into a business plan, it makes sense to pay more per minute as a racer than someone doing DE. I'm excluding the cost of car, tires, fuel, etc because none of that is controlled by NASA and those choices are completely up to the driver.

 

I applaud Jim & Julie and NASA for making racing as close to affordable as they do. Let's be honest, there is nothing cheap about what we do. NASA has a good (not perfect) system in place to grow and promote series such as Spec E30 and ST where people are able to run more affordable vehicles and get creative to keep costs as low as they can. They have a good (not perfect) training system to bring up better drivers over time and spread out the costs through DE's. (Don't forget you can pay $10,000 for a pro racing school and get your license in a week). And they do a good job of making the events fun to be at.

 

With that said I'll interject an observation on this topic as a business owner. I set my business up to appeal to a certain type of person. I realized that I couldn't make everyone happy early on. Some people want high quality, some want low price, etc. I can't structure a business to run both ways. The key to having a happy business with happy customers was to figure out who was a right fit and who didn't fit the business we had. When a paying customer has an issue / criticism I have to figure out if they are giving me a good opportunity to improve my business or if they are unhappy because they don't fit the business I am in. If they are voicing a concern that many other target customers have, I need to listen and make changes to keep offering good value to my clients. If they are just the wrong type of person, I need to thank them for their criticisms and nicely let them know I will probably never be able to make them happy. For every one unhappy person there are usually 95 happy ones that are ok or thrilled with the way things are and sometimes I need to ignore the squeaky wheel. Given the public way this issue was presented, I am not sure if you are the type of person trying to understand the finances behind NASA or the type of person that is very difficult to satisfy regardless of what the answer will be. If it's the latter, this may be a square peg, round hole issue.

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Not that I agree with the comment of racers giving subsidies to HPDE but everyone that owns a truck, SUV, Luxury or sports car has subsidized 3-5 fuel sipping compacts from the same manufacturer.

 

And yet we still seem to buy them. Why?

 

Because they are worth it! It's about the value offered.

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over in the first 10...just cruise around:

 

QKYgzc1mcRI

 

 

Damn! Nice save!

I've been out of shape plenty of times (and met a wall at RA), but that's just about the worst place on the track to lose it since you're hauling ass and have nowhere to go. I understand your excitement, but I might have been more worried about how I was going to get out of my suit and cleaned up before anyone else realized I'd shit my pants. lol

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And as far as the schedule change, I'm all for it. A 20 minute race sucks if there's a decent "off" because you might spend the 90% of the race following a pace car. Two 20 minute races in a day could be fun, but in a time crunch like we have this time, you can't count two 20 minute races the same as one 40 minute race. By the time you add up getting off grid, the pace lap, and the cool down lap for each of those two races, it's definitely more time off the clock than a 40 minute race.

I'd love to have qualifying (I agree with Jim on "sleeping it off" a little later on Sun and not having a warm-up session) and a 40 minute race on Sun, but I'd much rather have the longer race Sun, even if it means giving up qualifying on Sun.

I have a feeling that the number of entries far exceeded what Jim was expecting, so I don't think the plan was to have to add the Blitz group. However, I hope the huge turnout is the fact that it's combined regions and that we haven't been to Barber in a few years, and that it gets back to "normal" for other events.

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I guess I will have to commend you for a good save, however .... you are driving a Vette.. so you were not really saving anything, now if it was a Porsche...WOW.. GREAT JOB

 

Deer

Thoughts

 

 

 

Damn! Nice save!

I've been out of shape plenty of times (and met a wall at RA), but that's just about the worst place on the track to lose it since you're hauling ass and have nowhere to go. I understand your excitement, but I might have been more worried about how I was going to get out of my suit and cleaned up before anyone else realized I'd shoo-shiddily-diddily my pants. lol

 

Can't take credit for that one, Guys. That's Kevin "hangitout" Harvey.

 

Deere - please return your head to the squirrel's arse from which it came....we shall call you when we need you.

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With that said I'll interject an observation on this topic as a business owner. I set my business up to appeal to a certain type of person. I realized that I couldn't make everyone happy early on. Some people want high quality, some want low price, etc. I can't structure a business to run both ways. The key to having a happy business with happy customers was to figure out who was a right fit and who didn't fit the business we had. When a paying customer has an issue / criticism I have to figure out if they are giving me a good opportunity to improve my business or if they are unhappy because they don't fit the business I am in. If they are voicing a concern that many other target customers have, I need to listen and make changes to keep offering good value to my clients. If they are just the wrong type of person, I need to thank them for their criticisms and nicely let them know I will probably never be able to make them happy. For every one unhappy person there are usually 95 happy ones that are ok or thrilled with the way things are and sometimes I need to ignore the squeaky wheel. Given the public way this issue was presented, I am not sure if you are the type of person trying to understand the finances behind NASA or the type of person that is very difficult to satisfy regardless of what the answer will be. If it's the latter, this may be a square peg, round hole issue.

 

^^^^^^ Smart business owner and well put.

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I can't make it this time, but I gotta say this schedule isn't exactly enticing. If it makes y'all happy then whatever I guess.

 

More time has been added since V0.01 of the schedule, but to me it's still too little. I paid long ago, do not have to travel or pay for hotel, so I will likely be there. I know that the majority of my Birmingham race friends are staying home due to the lack of track time.

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It's been since 2008 I think since nasa has been to barber. This turnout is great and hopefully ensures nasa will return once or twice a year from now on. Maybe they could split up one of those DE groups (3) amongst the others. Would only add about 6 cars to the other groups. More track time.

 

I'm not complaining though, there are a ton of racers and they need the groups so there really aren't any other options.

 

Sign up fro Friday if you want more track time.

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Lucid Moments
over in the first 10...just cruise around:

 

QKYgzc1mcRI

 

So did you poop your pants, or did you just not have time to 'cause that was over pretty quick. Please note, not pooping yourself is not a possible answer to this question.

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Thanks for the credit Chris.

 

Fred - Jody lives up the road from me. Don't make me go get him back out of retirement to antagonize you on the interwebbies.

 

Mikey - no pooping allowed! But I did almost get sick to my stomach about 45 minutes later when the adrenaline wore off.

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Fellow business owner chiming in here. I see both sides, but I cant help but wonder, how much did the costs increase when the number of racers reached the point that a third race group had to be added? I ask this question because that is when the value to the racer went down. Hard to justify.

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Thanks for the laugh thru your simple calculations about an event, every time I see them it reminds me of the scene from

Careful Jim, that is a slippery slope you're on. Pretty sure you wouldn't want to share the actual amount of net profit on this event with the readership.

 

Frankly, I can't imagine speaking to one of my customers in that manner, in person or on a forum.

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Fred Crawford

Thanks for the laugh thru your simple calculations about an event, every time I see them it reminds me of the scene from

Careful Jim, that is a slippery slope you're on. Pretty sure you wouldn't want to share the actual amount of net profit on this event with the readership.

 

Frankly, I can't imagine speaking to one of my customers in that manner, in person or on a forum.

 

I thought that link was pretty funny myself. I don't think Jimbo meant that in a rude way. The man has to have a since of humor, look at what he deals with here . Anyway, as stated a while back, it is a business, there are times when I wish for more track time , or different race schedules, but for the most time, Nasa SE has been most accomindating to us racers. If one does not like it , do another organization, like what Lemmon did. I have more respect for that than whinning.

The way I count so far..... the score is 134 ok racers to 3 not ok . I dont see anyone stepping up , offering to pay more money when Nasa loses money on an event, I am sure he has lost $ many times. Its a business folks.

 

Deere

Business Owner 2

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Thanks for the laugh thru your simple calculations about an event, every time I see them it reminds me of the scene from

Careful Jim, that is a slippery slope you're on. Pretty sure you wouldn't want to share the actual amount of net profit on this event with the readership.

 

Frankly, I can't imagine speaking to one of my customers in that manner, in person or on a forum.

 

I thought that link was pretty funny myself. I don't think Jimbo meant that in a rude way. The man has to have a since of humor, look at what he deals with here . Anyway, as stated a while back, it is a business, there are times when I wish for more track time , or different race schedules, but for the most time, Nasa SE has been most accomindating to us racers. If one does not like it , do another organization, like what Lemmon did. I have more respect for that than whinning.

The way I count so far..... the score is 134 ok racers to 3 not ok . I dont see anyone stepping up , offering to pay more money when Nasa loses money on an event, I am sure he has lost $ many times. Its a business folks.

 

Deere

Business Owner 2

 

Your a pretty funny guy yourself. I bet you keep your crew in stitches. What i read in jims post was sarcasm, and that the guys previous post was ridiculous. That is rude in some circles. Almost like accusing someone of whinning when they have a complaint.

So heres you some rudeness shrouded in "humor": our math is different. I count a whole lot of racers who are unaware of this thread and may or may not have been disappointed to see their track time cut after they had paid, 3 guys whinning, and one guy licking someones balls. Lol

 

Its an interesting business model. I can only imagine if i charged my customer $800/ day to work on his car, and then told him after the fact that because i had too many customers in the shop, i could only work on his car 6 hours/day instead of 8. Maybe i could then justify it by explaining that he wasnt willing to pay me more than 800/day when the shop was empty.

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