Splitting class

[esr]

All this talk about the differentials is going to hurt the growth of the class.

How about 2 classe like Porsche does.

03,04,05 silver

07,08 gold

So no more talk about it.

The 07,08 nismo are pricy. Let the better off guys play with those and make them really fast.

[esr]

Sorry typo.

 

Meant differences, not differentials.

 

Sorry English is my third language!

 

 

quote="esr"]All this talk about the differentials is going to hurt the growth of the class.

How about 2 classe like Porsche does.

03,04,05 silver

07,08 gold

So no more talk about it.

The 07,08 nismo are pricy. Let the better off guys play with those and make them really fast.

[laze1]

I see a Spec370Z class being created before the SpecZ is split up

[Sterling Doc]

This tends not to work out well. It dillutes the class, splits contingencies, and doesn't solve the arguing - people just find the next smaller difference to argue about. 944 Spec and Cup could not co-exist in the same region. SP3 has been off again and on again over the years, SP1 & SP2 were merged. CMC1 and CMC2 re-merged.

[Brian L.]

This tends not to work out well. It dillutes the class, splits contingencies, and doesn't solve the arguing - people just find the next smaller difference to argue about. 944 Spec and Cup could not co-exist in the same region. SP3 has been off again and on again over the years, SP1 & SP2 were merged. CMC1 and CMC2 re-merged.

 

What he said! Don't split the class!

 

After being heavily involved in Honda challenge in the early years, the class was at its most competitive when they created basically a 2 class structure, instead of a 5 class structure. No one has proven that the 07-08's are faster, and as series officials have said, even if they do things will be balanced accordingly.

 

I would agree with creating a 370Z class however for the bigger spenders that don't like spec formats, but this class would likely see a fraction of the entries and would not be competitive. Think AI and AIX, in Norcal anyway there is rarely more than a couple of true AIX cars that make a good race. However they are fun to look at in the paddock and one could argue they increase the visibility of the series. So make a 370z class, let the rules be wide open, and have a couple of wild looking Z's turn some heads towards the class.

[esr]

[i disagree, unfortunately we won't know how many people we will loose to other series.

As it is this series will only be good for z lovers, anyone who is just looking to race and not worry about bs, will go somewhere else.

J must be a great driver, because everyone else looks, darn slow.

 

 

 

 

 

 

uote=B Esquire]

This tends not to work out well. It dillutes the class, splits contingencies, and doesn't solve the arguing - people just find the next smaller difference to argue about. 944 Spec and Cup could not co-exist in the same region. SP3 has been off again and on again over the years, SP1 & SP2 were merged. CMC1 and CMC2 re-merged.

 

What he said! Don't split the class!

 

After being heavily involved in Honda challenge in the early years, the class was at its most competitive when they created basically a 2 class structure, instead of a 5 class structure. No one has proven that the 07-08's are faster, and as series officials have said, even if they do things will be balanced accordingly.

 

I would agree with creating a 370Z class however for the bigger spenders that don't like spec formats, but this class would likely see a fraction of the entries and would not be competitive. Think AI and AIX, in Norcal anyway there is rarely more than a couple of true AIX cars that make a good race. However they are fun to look at in the paddock and one could argue they increase the visibility of the series. So make a 370z class, let the rules be wide open, and have a couple of wild looking Z's turn some heads towards the class.

[esr]

Other than being silly to try to race them together The cars and the rules are great, if it was only 03/04 this class would be perfect.

After running a car for a year, I am impressed as how cool these cars are, an 03 that was.

But racing them together is bs. And will keep people away.

 

 

[i disagree, unfortunately we won't know how many people we will loose to other series.

As it is this series will only be good for z lovers, anyone who is just looking to race and not worry about bs, will go somewhere else.

J must be a great driver, because everyone else looks, darn slow.

 

 

 

 

 

 

uote=B Esquire]

This tends not to work out well. It dillutes the class, splits contingencies, and doesn't solve the arguing - people just find the next smaller difference to argue about. 944 Spec and Cup could not co-exist in the same region. SP3 has been off again and on again over the years, SP1 & SP2 were merged. CMC1 and CMC2 re-merged.

 

What he said! Don't split the class!

 

After being heavily involved in Honda challenge in the early years, the class was at its most competitive when they created basically a 2 class structure, instead of a 5 class structure. No one has proven that the 07-08's are faster, and as series officials have said, even if they do things will be balanced accordingly.

 

I would agree with creating a 370Z class however for the bigger spenders that don't like spec formats, but this class would likely see a fraction of the entries and would not be competitive. Think AI and AIX, in Norcal anyway there is rarely more than a couple of true AIX cars that make a good race. However they are fun to look at in the paddock and one could argue they increase the visibility of the series. So make a 370z class, let the rules be wide open, and have a couple of wild looking Z's turn some heads towards the class.

[Brian L.]

Its kinda funny that you think there isn't BS or complaining in every series ever created .

 

Racers complain, everyone's car has an unfair advantage, everyone else is getting favorable treatment from the series directors, etc. etc. I don't think you can watch a Rolex or Continental Challenge interview without hearing someone complain. Its just kind of part of the sport, unfortunately.

 

I don't think there is any real drama yet concerning the 07-08 cars running. All I have heard so far is people wondering what car will be fastest. And it is really not a big concern of mine right now because there are not enough cars running with equal drivers to really know.

 

So lets just focus on building the class and have rules stability, rather than trying to already hurt car counts by turning away 07-08 cars.

[esr]

Brian those are not spec series, I think you are a bit confused.

 

 

 

Its kinda funny that you think there isn't BS or complaining in every series ever

 

created .

 

Racers complain, everyone's car has an unfair advantage, everyone else is getting favorable treatment from the series directors, etc. etc. I don't think you can watch a Rolex or Continental Challenge interview without hearing someone complain. Its just kind of part of the sport, unfortunately.

 

I don't think there is any real drama yet concerning the 07-08 cars running. All I have heard so far is people wondering what car will be fastest. And it is really not a big concern of mine right now because there are not enough cars running with equal drivers to really know.

 

So lets just focus on building the class and have rules stability, rather than trying to already hurt car counts by turning away 07-08 cars.

[Brian L.]

No confusion here. Spec series or no, everyone complains, and since we have different models running in our spec series, people will complain.

 

My point is right now I don't see any real complaining going on or heard anyone say they won't run in Spec Z unless the 07-08's are not allowed. But maybe you have heard something I have not.

 

This class is struggling for car counts right now, turning people away will only hurt that right? I think everyone realizes that it is in everyone's best interest to grow the series right now, or it will eventually loose support and fizzle and die as a LOT of club series do. Then we will all be stuck with car builds that won't be worth much.

 

I am excited to run against an HR engine in my 03, always more satisfying to beat someone with handling than with power. Take it as a challenge and lets go beat up some heavy HR cars! .

[esr]

Hey you have no choice right!

 

 

 

No confusion here. Spec series or no, everyone complains, and since we have different models running in our spec series, people will complain.

 

My point is right now I don't see any real complaining going on or heard anyone say they won't run in Spec Z unless the 07-08's are not allowed. But maybe you have heard something I have not.

 

This class is struggling for car counts right now, turning people away will only hurt that right? I think everyone realizes that it is in everyone's best interest to grow the series right now, or it will eventually loose support and fizzle and die as a LOT of club series do. Then we will all be stuck with car builds that won't be worth much.

 

I am excited to run against an HR engine in my 03, always more satisfying to beat someone with handling than with power. Take it as a challenge and lets go beat up some heavy HR cars! .

[dmdirks]

If you are going to propose splitting up the class, please provide concrete data to support your claim that the HR car has a clear advantage over the other platforms. Without data, your claim of "running them together is BS" is BS in itself. Could you at least describe your experience racing against various Spec Z platforms?

 

Ideally, a spec class would only consist of cars with the exact same engine, weight, and chassis configuration. As you say, this would be perfect. However, Spec Miata, 944-Spec, CMC, Spec E30, etc are examples of imperfect spec classes, as there as differences throughout all the eligible model years. Over time their rules have been revised, based on solid data, to maximize parity within them. Spec Z is no exception, and we as drivers should always make the effort to compare data, swap cars, etc, to find out what these differences are and revise the rules if necessary.

 

Since 2012 I have raced against 11 different cars, consisting of 6 HR, 2 Rev-up and 3 DE engines. There has not been one race where I have felt I did not win because of a clear performance gap in the cars. Traqmate data I have seen from the top three cars at Nationals 2012 also supported this.

 

I would also like to address the following: "As it is this series will only be good for z lovers, anyone who is just looking to race and not worry about bs, will go somewhere else." After racing 944-Spec for seven years, my decision-making process was quite objective: fast, reliable, inexpensive parts, similar power-to-weight ratio, and the cheapest donor car must be nationally competitive. No BS here. Again, the class is not perfect, but with over 30 Spec Z's either being raced or being built across the country, we've got something good here.

 

I think discussing the differences in the eligible years is not damaging to the growth of the class. Like with any new series, people would like to understand the differences before they spend the money on a donor. However, comments such as, "J must be a great driver, because everyone else looks, darn slow" are damaging and unnecessary in these discussions.

[esr]

I am very sorry about the comment, I was under the impression that he was driving a nismo. Because it looked very fast on the straights. But I if he wasn't man he must be good indeed!

The comment was directed towards the difference in the cars, sorry it was worded inapropietly.

 

 

 

 

 

 

quote="dmdirks"]If you are going to propose splitting up the class, please provide concrete data to support your claim that the HR car has a clear advantage over the other platforms. Without data, your claim of "running them together is BS" is BS in itself. Could you at least describe your experience racing against various Spec Z platforms?

 

Ideally, a spec class would only consist of cars with the exact same engine, weight, and chassis configuration. As you say, this would be perfect. However, Spec Miata, 944-Spec, CMC, Spec E30, etc are examples of imperfect spec classes, as there as differences throughout all the eligible model years. Over time their rules have been revised, based on solid data, to maximize parity within them. Spec Z is no exception, and we as drivers should always make the effort to compare data, swap cars, etc, to find out what these differences are and revise the rules if necessary.

 

Since 2012 I have raced against 11 different cars, consisting of 6 HR, 2 Rev-up and 3 DE engines. There has not been one race where I have felt I did not win because of a clear performance gap in the cars. Traqmate data I have seen from the top three cars at Nationals 2012 also supported this.

 

I would also like to address the following: "As it is this series will only be good for z lovers, anyone who is just looking to race and not worry about bs, will go somewhere else." After racing 944-Spec for seven years, my decision-making process was quite objective: fast, reliable, inexpensive parts, similar power-to-weight ratio, and the cheapest donor car must be nationally competitive. No BS here. Again, the class is not perfect, but with over 30 Spec Z's either being raced or being built across the country, we've got something good here.

 

I think discussing the differences in the eligible years is not damaging to the growth of the class. Like with any new series, people would like to understand the differences before they spend the money on a donor. However, comments such as, "J must be a great driver, because everyone else looks, darn slow" are damaging and unnecessary in these discussions.

[Sterling Doc]

Dave is being his usual humble self here - he won Nationals this year convincingly in an early car - I think that is pretty good proof that the early cars are competitive in the right hands. A very good driver can often make a particular car look like an overdog - be very careful on forming opinions from isolated experiences. Corner exit speed determines a large amount of straightaway speed, and it can be deceptive to watch. Traqmate data tells the story.