More ST classes and get rid of PT completely?

[00integravtecgsr]

I really like the ST rules. VERY easy to read and calculate. No hidden crap that can be done in PT/TT.

 

How about a few more classes? (ST4, ST5 ST6 maybe).

 

My current setup (Honda Challenge 1) is too much for PTB and puts me into ST3 but 70whp underpowered.

 

I would really like to see some more classes to ST. I think it will really pick up. I was very competitive racing the ST3 thunder roadsters in my current setup but am still no match for the Z06's. I would be really curious to see if the extra 70whp would level the playing field, but unfortunately funds do not permit a big engine build.

[Bnjmn]

You should be aware that moving to ST-style rules and building your car close to the limit of the rules, even in a lower HP class, will likely make that engine build look like pocket change.

[kbrew8991]

Nobody wants to build a 15-17-20 lb / whp but otherwise pretty unlimited car like what would have to happen when you erase all of PT. That'd be a frankly stupid idea.

 

Tweaking your car to fit the otherwise pretty decent set of classes would be a better solution. Find someplace you're happy. HC1? ST3? Demod a touch for PTB? Shrug. Have you sent in asking for a custom reclass to see if that saves you any points and allows you to slot into PTB as-is?

[00integravtecgsr]

From the lap times at Road Atlanta in March, the ST3 thunder roadsters and I were running the same times (1:38 me, 1:39 ST3 TR that came in 2nd place in ST3). And also this weekend at Robeling Road the ST3 thunder roadsters were running the same times as the HC cars, but not the Z06's. I cannot compete with the Z06's in HC1 trim. I am highly competitive in PTB but my car doesn't fit in the class due to aero, spherical bushings, control arms and too much power / too light. I could detune the car from 230 to probably 175 which would make me pretty slow. Unless the PT/TT rules have changed in the last year.

 

I heard in another chat yesterday that there will be a few changes to the Z06's in ST3 to make them a little slower? Anyone know anything about this?

[Bnjmn]

Considering there is a TT3 Evo in the NE running nearly identical times to a very well driven and well-prepared TT2 corvette, it seems like you heard a joke.

[brkntrxn]

From the lap times at Road Atlanta in March, the ST3 thunder roadsters and I were running the same times (1:38 me, 1:39 ST3 TR that came in 2nd place in ST3). And also this weekend at Robeling Road the ST3 thunder roadsters were running the same times as the HC cars, but not the Z06's. I cannot compete with the Z06's in HC1 trim. I am highly competitive in PTB but my car doesn't fit in the class due to aero, spherical bushings, control arms and too much power / too light. I could detune the car from 230 to probably 175 which would make me pretty slow. Unless the PT/TT rules have changed in the last year.

 

I heard in another chat yesterday that there will be a few changes to the Z06's in ST3 to make them a little slower? Anyone know anything about this?

 

 

 

SOOOOO, I am the ST3 Z06 this past weekend at Roebling. Let me clear up a few things:

 

- my car is built to the limits of the ST3 rules on horsepower to weight

- we have spent a CRAP LOAD of money on suspension in the past year

- we have spent a CRAP LOAD of money on aero in the past year

- we have spent ANOTHER CRAP LOAD of money on brakes in the past year

- we spent a fourth crap load of money on going to larger tires

- I am a decent driver

 

NOT a single ST3 Thunder Roadster at Roebling was/is built to the limits of the Super Touring rules. I know this, I was the ST Director for the weekend. I would highly suggest that others build their cars to the limit before anyone suggest throwing adjustments at the Vettes.

 

After being forced out of the cost containing PT class structure into the open wallet classes, my advice to you is to find a way to fit into PTB.

 

Kevin Harvey

[00integravtecgsr]

From the lap times at Road Atlanta in March, the ST3 thunder roadsters and I were running the same times (1:38 me, 1:39 ST3 TR that came in 2nd place in ST3). And also this weekend at Robeling Road the ST3 thunder roadsters were running the same times as the HC cars, but not the Z06's. I cannot compete with the Z06's in HC1 trim. I am highly competitive in PTB but my car doesn't fit in the class due to aero, spherical bushings, control arms and too much power / too light. I could detune the car from 230 to probably 175 which would make me pretty slow. Unless the PT/TT rules have changed in the last year.

 

I heard in another chat yesterday that there will be a few changes to the Z06's in ST3 to make them a little slower? Anyone know anything about this?

 

 

 

SOOOOO, I am the ST3 Z06 this past weekend at Roebling. Let me clear up a few things:

 

- my car is built to the limits of the ST3 rules on horsepower to weight

- we have spent a CRAP LOAD of money on suspension in the past year

- we have spent a CRAP LOAD of money on aero in the past year

- we have spent ANOTHER CRAP LOAD of money on brakes in the past year

- we spent a fourth crap load of money on going to larger tires

- I am a decent driver

 

NOT a single ST3 Thunder Roadster at Roebling was/is built to the limits of the Super Touring rules. I know this, I was the ST Director for the weekend. I would highly suggest that others build their cars to the limit before anyone suggest throwing adjustments at the Vettes.

 

After being forced out of the cost containing PT class structure into the open wallet classes, my advice to you is to find a way to fit into PTB.

 

Kevin Harvey

 

You and Scott Perkins (I believe he is an ST3 car as well, he runs TT3) are the ones I am using as my base. So if the TR's are not built to max rules, then if they were, they would be faster than me as well.

 

I read on FB you are making 336? whp on a dynojet? I will have to dyno mine on a dynojet to see where it is and then see how far off I am.

[kbrew8991]

Your lack of competitiveness in the current structure is not the fault of the structure at this point. Sorry. Let's take a car with tons of mods and try and shoehorn it into a limited mods class. That totally will work out super awesome!

 

Pull some of the aero parts off that cost too much points but don't provide the full benifit.

Evaluate the rest of the car in a similar manner.

See what other S2000 people can help you pick and choose a good TTB/PTB setup. Somebody like Wynn S. or Dysen Pham.

 

If that's just something you can't stomach, your other choice is to keep playing in HC1 or mod *more* and get towards the pointy end of ST3. Bring more money. Nope, bring even more.

 

At least you get the choice of a separate marque-based class (HCx). Not everyone has that 3rd choice. Hundreds of PT and ST people have bought in (quite literally) to the current system. Altering said system should benifit them as well.

[brkntrxn]

Kris,

 

I am ST3 legal on horsepower to weight. I will gladly show you my dyno graphs at an event when you are registered in ST3. Until then, feel free to contact the ST Directors if you want to see anyone's paperwork.

 

It is NOT about horsepower. It is about the ratio. And the suspension. And the brakes. And the tires. And the aero. ALL of which ANY car can do in the Super Touring classes.

 

I have video evidence that the acceleration rate of my car and two of the ST3 Thunder Roadsters at Roebling this weekend was identical. In both races, me and the P2 TRs were dead even from the drop of the green flag all the way to the braking zone of T1. Dead even with my foot darn near in the radiator I was pushing the gas so hard.

 

And let's not forget that I got BEAT by an ST3 TR at Barber on Sunday back in February. The only reason Mr Tink didn't beat me on Saturday as well is because he spun early in the race.

[00integravtecgsr]

Thanks Kevin. Not asking to see anything paperwork, just saying what I thought you mentioned on facebook the other night after saturdays race.

 

Currently according the ST calculator I am 11.1:1, so obviously I'm not close to the 9:1. I will see what I can do to get down to the minimum. I would really like to come play in ST3 seeing that the car count seems to be growing.

 

I don't drive an S2000 so I cannot compare it to my Integra. I know Wynn very well and the car. The S2000 is a great car and doesn't need much mods to be competitive, and that is why it is a restricted prep car in Honda Challenge H1.

 

Not saying its the lack of structure, I like the ST class very well because it is simple to calculate and easy to call a cheater out. PT/TT is way to easy to cheat. I know several that cheat at every event and win and nothing happens to them because 1st, no one cars to to inspect. And 2nd, no one will know what to look for unless you are car specific guru.

[kbrew8991]

ahh missed on the car type, my bad. Not sure of a ton of fwd ST type cars, other than that one Honda Civic that won ST1 at Nationals or whatever the hell those silly Corvette people trot out as an example all the time

 

PT/TT is way to easy to cheat. I know several that cheat at every event and win and nothing happens to them because 1st, no one cars to to inspect. And 2nd, no one will know what to look for unless you are car specific guru.

^^ that, that right there (if true) is (potentially) a failure of regional leadership, not of the rules structure. If the series director isn't or doesn't have the support needed to enforce the ruleset, it doesn't matter what the ruleset says.

 

And I contest the 2nd one, it doesn't take *that* much of a trained eye to spot a non-BTM / OEM part. And that's part of why things are written such that if you change it at all whatsoever, it's a points mod. There's some "alleged" hidden stuff in ST people can "supposedly" use to cheat as well. Same with any ruleset ever written. And it's not like I'm one of the guys doing something similar for both types of classes at many events a year or anything

[Bnjmn]

Obviously you can also protest under the rules or discuss any perceived non-compliance with your competitors.

[bob-e]

I've been a proponent for ST4 (maybe keep PTB and add ST4 and see where the cars go), but I have a turbo car and I can hit an exact HP/WT number with a simple change of turbo. Not expensive at all. As far as cheating in PT, I haven't seen any, but I'll be glad to take a closer look if you send me in the right direction. Doesn't have to be a formal protest. Maybe you're talking about TTB since I'm the only PTB in SE? Anyone is welcome to tear my car down if you put it back together. I'll provide tq specs I'd love to see some double dippers in PT from Honda Challenge. Have you had a dyno reclass from Greg yet? You'll need one for your motor swap. The PTD and SE30 double dipping has been awesome this year. Jim in the SE has been very accomodating by adding a blitz race when the car count is up or just splitting SE30 and PT into thunder lightning when the count is down.

[Disney]

Kris, I don't understand why you would try to cross over into ST3 when you car is very close to PTB as-is. Maybe take off the wing and add some ballast and bam... You're in PTB. YOu will need a dyno reclass anyways due to the K24 swap, but I imagine you can get it into B and be competitive. You already know you're 3-4 seconds faster at RATL than the last PTB winner!

 

I also would take iss ue with the "easy to cheat in PT" I don't think it is. I don't know everything about overy car, but I can spot big brakes, I can see a header or stand alone ECU. I don't think it's easy to cheat at all. ANything you could do and keep hidden likely wouldn't benefit you very much anyways..

[00integravtecgsr]

Kris, I don't understand why you would try to cross over into ST3 when you car is very close to PTB as-is. Maybe take off the wing and add some ballast and bam... You're in PTB. YOu will need a dyno reclass anyways due to the K24 swap, but I imagine you can get it into B and be competitive. You already know you're 3-4 seconds faster at RATL than the last PTB winner!

 

I also would take iss ue with the "easy to cheat in PT" I don't think it is. I don't know everything about overy car, but I can spot big brakes, I can see a header or stand alone ECU. I don't think it's easy to cheat at all. ANything you could do and keep hidden likely wouldn't benefit you very much anyways..

 

My car won't fit into PTB. I sent Greg an email to get an idea as to how far out I am. Cheating is easy for some. How could you tell if someone changed gear ratios? added "stock" sway bars, LSD, extra gear added (which should be easy to check)...

 

What kills me is the upper control arms needed for camber adjustment, spherical bearings and a few other things.

 

After talking with Bob I think I might have an easy way to bolt on 20 extra whp at the track and upload the tune to go with it to enable me to jump to ST3.

 

Why ST3? I wanna lay the smack down on some Z06's lol.. just kidding.. it seems like a competitive class that is growing and easier to fit into minus the HP disadvantage.

[jon819]

Do you think a fully built Thunder Roadster could give the Corvettes a run for their money or is it just on the shorter tracks where they will do good?

[brkntrxn]

Do you think a fully built Thunder Roadster could give the Corvettes a run for their money or is it just on the shorter tracks where they will do good?

 

 

A "fully built" anything will give us a run for our money. At any track.

[sperkins]

Do you think a fully built Thunder Roadster could give the Corvettes a run for their money or is it just on the shorter tracks where they will do good?

Doesn't really matter. As long as everyone keeps complaining, eventually we'll get kicked out of ST3/TT3 as well.

[SNAKBITN]

Spec Vette is on it's way....

[Bnjmn]

At this point, a spec vette has front and rear aero, coilovers, fancy sways, big brakes, big tires, depending on class, bulging bodywork, etc etc.

[kbrew8991]

How could you tell if someone changed gear ratios? added "stock" sway bars, LSD, extra gear added (which should be easy to check)....

It's not hard to find the BTM/OEM dimensions and specs for parts on modern cars. And that's for the "hard" stuff you mention, extra gear & LSD is childsplay to find. Older cars (70s & earlier before computers) are a bit more of a challenge but not impossible.

[braknl8]

Spec Vette is on it's way....

 

Nope.....would have made too much sense a couple of years ago. Now it would be a complete kick in the teeth to every vette owner that just dumped many thousands into their car, just to continue to compete.....AND support NASA. I think those with cars that leave them with 2-3-4 classes that they can currently fit into should take a hard look at where they are and what is available to them...and be thankful. I say if you want to run st3, slap everything you can on and go play. You may end up smoking everyone. But, everyone shouldn't change to accommodate one or two.

[ILIKETODRIVE]

Currently according the ST calculator I am 11.1:1, so obviously I'm not close to the 9:1.

With added aero ST3 limit is 9.5:1 FYI. You get to add less whp than you think.

[00integravtecgsr]

Currently according the ST calculator I am 11.1:1, so obviously I'm not close to the 9:1.

With added aero ST3 limit is 9.5:1 FYI. You get to add less whp than you think.

 

I'm just basing my stats off the ST calculator.

[kbrew8991]

Currently according the ST calculator I am 11.1:1, so obviously I'm not close to the 9:1.

With added aero ST3 limit is 9.5:1 FYI. You get to add less whp than you think.

last year it was a 0.5 hit, now its 0.4

 

and it depends on if you want to talk in raw terms knowing what they translate to or if you want to talk in adjusted terms. I prefer adjusted terms... but ymmv.