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Hoosier A7s


PoBoyR6

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From what i've seen (and heard) the "7" compounds are not faster. Just more consistent over multiple heat cycles. Where the "6" compounds had a hero lap followed by drop-off in grip/times in every subsequent heat cycle, now, the "7s" have no hero lap, are more consistent over the life of the tire but also good drivers are saying they are harder to drive at the absolute limit than the 6 compounds...

 

This is what needs to be fully flushed out by NASA. My only concern is that whatever testing is performed is fully objective and eminiates any variables that could muddy the water i.e. same car, same driver, same time of day, etc. etc. I don't like hearing that there is a bias already because of a random TTC car breaking a TTB lap record. That can happen in any given region regardless of tire when you have a fast car, fast driver, cold ambient temps, soft existing track record, etc. Look at how many records in lower classes are currently faster than records 1 or even 2 classes higher. Not relavant for the purposes of a tire comparison.

 

Having said this I can see the argument from both sides. Regardless there is a need to know if the A7/R7 tires are faster, then by how much? That should surely factor into the decision as to whether there is an argument for keeping the point evaluation the same. Tires evolve after all...but does that mean we are eventually going to have +25 Hoosiers when the tires from yesteryear are not even being produced anymore? The rest of the manufacturers will be improving their tires as well so where will we ultimately end up? Maybe some sort of 'reset' of tire points to account for tire evolution is something that could be considered. A 200tw tire from 10+ years ago will get absolutely trounced by a BFG Rival...

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RockLobster

Just did a quick data analysis on best source i could think of. Spec Miata @ June sprints (Road America) 2013 (SM6) vs 2014 (SM7).

 

Huge Spec Miata Field at that event every year and the rules between these two years did not appreciably change for the cars other than the tire.

 

Two quick notes from the qualifying Data:

 

Same drive took pole both years: His best lap in 2014 was a 2:43.017 vs a 2:43.541 in 2013. 0.524 sec faster on the SM7. 0.2 sec/min faster.

 

Average for the top 35 cars in qualifying was 2:45.744 in 2013 and was 2:44.989 in 2014. 0.75 sec faster on the SM7 and represents about 0.27 sec/min.

 

You could argue the cars got a little bit quicker but the fact that the difference of the leaders was less than the average of the top 35, one could argue not that much development in other areas of speed. It was slightly cooler this year so perhaps the cars were making more power, IDK.

 

Either way its probably on par with 0.2 sec/min lap time improvement with the "R7" compound.

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now I'm worried that my planning to have adequate R6 supply for East Nats will screw me (if the R7 is faster...).

 

I hope an equitable reasonable solution can be found. Maybe allow A7/R7 at same points as A6/R6 with a slight bump in min weight to account for 'em being faster or something (if they are faster - I haven't run 'em so I don't know.) for the time being and reset the points as appropriate for 2015 season (hopefully re-baseline everything so that people don't have to pull parts off or redesign mod packages too much).

 

 

If NASA keeps adding points then it is going to get real expensive for competitors to keep up. Leave the points the same as now and realize that tires are going to get faster. This is not the same as the 255 18 Hoosier which was a single tire that only some could take advantage of but an improvement, we hope as I still remember the A3SO5 disaster, and ALL competitors are on the same level playing field.

 

Peter

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  • National Staff

The TB for the remainder of 2014 is posted. The 2015 proposed tire point assessments will be posted next month sometime. DO NOT make changes to your vehicle for 2015 based on the 2014 technical bulletin as further adjustments are expected, including changes to other tire models. The 2014 TB was necessary due to some availability issues on certain sizes/models (most are still available today) that are possible by the time of the Championships. NASA did controlled (driver(s), vehicle, track, temperature, time) testing of the R6, R7, A6, and A7, and our results clearly showed that we cannot "just make them the same points as before". Statements like these are neither informed nor helpful: "I don't like hearing that there is a bias already because of a random TTC car breaking a TTB lap record." The small note that I made was just to point out that during our testing, the A7's were run as +30 point "non-DOT approved" tire on a TTC car that is running at 13.3:1 Adjusted, and took down a 5 year old track record in TTB (on a 100 degree day). The point being that the new A7's are extremely capable. There is nothing "biased" or "random" about this. It was just one of the "side" results of our testing that was primarily focused on lap time differences between the models. The R7's and A7's are not "6's" with new compounds. They are a new tire model.

 

NASA suggests for those with tire availability issues for 2014 that also do not have points that can be adjusted, that if you currently run on an A6, try an R7 for the same +13 points. For those that run on R6's, try an R7 in a smaller size that will give you 3 points tire size credit, making it neutral in terms of points.

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kbrew8991

thanks for getting the ruling out as soon as it was - still plenty of time to make a couple tweaks if needed before Nationals & events the rest of the season.

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Understand for 2014 but would rather see the points done differently for 2015. Recognize the A7/R7 as the baseline for Rcomps as they have the biggest available size range. Adjust the other Rcomps down as needed to reflect the new Hoosiers superior performance. This would not screw up competitors classing who are currently running Hoosiers.

 

Peter

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Understand for 2014 but would rather see the points done differently for 2015. Recognize the A7/R7 as the baseline for Rcomps as they have the biggest available size range. Adjust the other Rcomps down as needed to reflect the new Hoosiers superior performance. This would not screw up competitors classing who are currently running Hoosiers.

 

Peter

Patience, Grasshopper.

 

As I stated, there will be other changes in 2015 (that we could not make mid-season 2014). We will post our proposed changes next month, giving everyone more than 5-8 months to plan for 2015.

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The TB for the remainder of 2014 is posted. The 2015 proposed tire point assessments will be posted next month sometime. DO NOT make changes to your vehicle for 2015 based on the 2014 technical bulletin as further adjustments are expected, including changes to other tire models. The 2014 TB was necessary due to some availability issues on certain sizes/models (most are still available today) that are possible by the time of the Championships. NASA did controlled (driver(s), vehicle, track, temperature, time) testing of the R6, R7, A6, and A7, and our results clearly showed that we cannot "just make them the same points as before". Statements like these are neither informed nor helpful: "I don't like hearing that there is a bias already because of a random TTC car breaking a TTB lap record." The small note that I made was just to point out that during our testing, the A7's were run as +30 point "non-DOT approved" tire on a TTC car that is running at 13.3:1 Adjusted, and took down a 5 year old track record in TTB (on a 100 degree day). The point being that the new A7's are extremely capable. There is nothing "biased" or "random" about this. It was just one of the "side" results of our testing that was primarily focused on lap time differences between the models. The R7's and A7's are not "6's" with new compounds. They are a new tire model.

 

NASA suggests for those with tire availability issues for 2014 that also do not have points that can be adjusted, that if you currently run on an A6, try an R7 for the same +13 points. For those that run on R6's, try an R7 in a smaller size that will give you 3 points tire size credit, making it neutral in terms of points.

 

Thanks for providing this background info Greg and clearing the air. There is of course an element of chicken little getting his cheese moved and the knee jerk reactions that come with it...hence my comment based on the only piece of information you had shared up to that point. Appreciate the due diligence you guys are putting in to evaluate these tires properly.

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RockLobster

Yeah, thanks Greg. Background is great info and provides confidence in the rule development. I'm not surprised to hear the performance difference in the R7/A7 has been understated and NASA found they are much better. I'd not heard much about the A7 myself.

 

Clearly Hoosier was feeling the pressure from other manufacturers who have come up with some great stuff lately (BFG, et al) and needed to step up the performance of their DOT radials.

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Will there be a corresponding change to the DOT or slick tire factors for TT1/2/3?

Not at this time, but it will be up for discussion for 2015 (I.e the Autocross tires in general).

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kbrew8991

if there is that consideration (Autocross tires in TT1/2/3 getting some sort of factor) can there also be a consideration for street-type tires getting a credit as well for TT1/2/3 in 2015?

 

I've had some current participants, past participants, and prospective participants ask me many times over the years if that would ever be on the table....

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if there is that consideration (Autocross tires in TT1/2/3 getting some sort of factor) can there also be a consideration for street-type tires getting a credit as well for TT1/2/3 in 2015?

 

I've had some current participants, past participants, and prospective participants ask me many times over the years if that would ever be on the table....

We can look at it, but I would highly doubt it for ST, and doubt it for TT. Because of the high doubt for ST, it makes TT less likely as well. Try defining "street-type" tires nowadays without making a specific list. UTQG is going out the window, and has always been dependent on the manufacturer, not an overseeing body.

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kbrew8991

Anything we can do to help out those running more durable tires (say Maxxis RC-1 on down) stay at least closer to in the hunt would help out. Thanks for at least considering & thinking about it!

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I'd love to see more street tires in NASA. 1-2 sets of tires that last all year and don't heat cycle out very easy is very appealing.

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I'd love to see more street tires in NASA. 1-2 sets of tires that last all year and don't heat cycle out very easy is very appealing.

 

But who wants to go slower...

This may be fine if you've never been on the purple crack, but street tires suck if you've been on some race rubber.

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ILIKETODRIVE

Or if you're a ringer driver and don't mind spending money on getting said street tires shaved...

 

It really is more fun than just beating up on underprepped cars/drivers.

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Dysenpham

Greg- can you disclose if that same TTC car has ran A6s in those same conditions as the A7s and what's the delta between the two?

 

Another question that I would like some clarity on would be why the A7 gets bumped up 9 extra points and the R7 only gets bumped up 3pts under the new temporary 2014 ruling as their A6-R6 counterparts were only 3pts apart? I understand the 7s are a new compound but 22ptsvs 13pts is quite a difference.

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I'd love to see more street tires in NASA. 1-2 sets of tires that last all year and don't heat cycle out very easy is very appealing.

 

 

I agree with you on this. Not sure if it would even be possible with all the variables, but a mod factor for "street" tires would be nice to see.

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as long as we're asking for the moon, I'll put in my request for auto-cross tires to become the standard … i.e. zero points … don't know anyone that TT's on all seasons …

 

it is "racing" after all. plus it could possible get me back to TTF … LOL

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Autocross tires *are* A6s/A7s....

 

I think he means the 'Street Tire' or ST auto-x classes. The 200 TW tires (or 140TW re-badged) like the StarSpec, AD008R, etc...

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kbrew8991
Autocross tires *are* A6s/A7s....

 

I think he means the 'Street Tire' or ST auto-x classes. The 200 TW tires (or 140TW re-badged) like the StarSpec, AD008R, etc...

Oh I forgot that they neutered the fun Stock classes and made them run lame-o tires.

 

Anywho, those are called Performance Streets

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