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944spec on video


Cory M

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In fact my first reaction would be to think that the bumped car would have been happy to receive the helpful push by the in-class car he is racing against. And I were in Tim's position I would be a little annoyed that an out of class car got involved in a way that provided an advantage to a competitor.

 

Knowing the car that was bumped is a fast/experienced driver probably was also a factor. If he had been a rookie, it surely would have been a different story.

 

 

Exactly what I wanted to say.

 

Must also keep in mind, Edik was leading the H4 class. Loosing time behind 2 cars in a different class that are fighting for position is a hard thing to sit by and do. Being in the same position Edik was in, I would have done the same thing. I think some are forgetting the difference between a punt and bump. From the sound on the vid, Edik gave a slight lift over 6 (normally WOT) to time the draft. Looks like the bump was well timed and done correctly. Not sure what all the stink is about.

Contact is not what this video is showing, at least IMO. A bump is simply a bump.

Any of you come up behind me in the same situation, please bump me by my competitor!

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We have always preached ZERO CONTACT in the 944 spec class. You have to lift off the throttle if you're going to drive through someone! Back off, time it, and get a run coming out of a turn. I wasn't happy that Jason got that extra push on the back straight at Willow, but that's the way it unfolded.

I try hard to avoid contact, even if the other guy is in the wrong. Got multiple instances on video to show that. As the Series Director for this new 944 class, I've tried to set the driving tone as one of conservatism. We're racing amongst our 944 friends, right?!

I afford racers in the other small bore classes the same respect and hope we get it returned.

What do the NASA CCR's say about bump drafting on the straights?

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I also like to keep the bumping to a minimum.

1 bump per straightway only should be the norm. Any more than 1 should get stop and go.

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oh my god....biting my lip for so long and not making any comments on Tim and his driving....can't resist now!

 

Tim, you have to be kidding! First of all you were sloppy and sideways coming out of turn 6 (as the video shows) and I was overtaking you no matter what. The tiny little bump was nothing and I mean nothing. The honda guy chose to get behind me because he knew I had the momentum.

 

Our battling obviously had you flustered because conservative and friendly is not how I would categorize your driving. You are, and have been driving like your job and your livelihood depend on where and how you finish (oh yeah, that's right, they do). Ever since the new guys, and I am not talking about Dwain, have been beating you, your car needs a membership at the local Maaco or Earl Scheib for the monthly body work special.

 

I know of many situations with other drivers, but I won't speak for them. I WILL speak for myself only! You can have all the video you want, but you squeezed me off the track coming down the front straight. You know it, I know it, and a bunch of people both in and outside of the 944 circle KNOW IT! I had strangers come up to me...unsolicited! They witnessed everything and saw you had plenty of track and had no reason to put me in the position I was in.

 

I don't know the exact quote, but you said out loud, to a number of people in the pits, that you give just enough room to let someone stay on the track. Why would you pinch me off when overtaking into turn 1? You obviously thought I would back off...that's why. Conservatism....yeah, that's what you were counting on from me and I thought I would get the same from the preacher himself! We're racing amongst our 944 friends right?

 

Is it unsafe racing...by the defintion of the rules...not. But why didn't you just hold your line? You couldn't have let little old me beat you, how would that look for Commeau Racing Enterprises? Oh yeah, Dylan, Jim and Mike were ahead of us so you wouldn't have even podiumed.

 

Punt? Yeah, by the rules that's what it was, but I guess only you will know what was going through your mind at the time! Bet it wasn't...hmm, I have a little run on Jason.... we are getting close to turn in...we can easily go through turn 1 side by side... I will be a gentleman, oh no better yet CONSERVATIVE, and just beat him into turn 2.

 

I have absolutley no problem with driving aggressive, god knows, I have had my share of offs.....but I don't do it on purpose and would never endanger another 944 (or other driver). To my knowledge, nobody else in the 944 series has at much at stake as you do. Dwain just drives the 944 for the hell of it and could care less. You on the otherhand live, eat and breathe 944's. Race director competing in a series with his entire livelihood at stake....who is going to get the breaks when and if a ruling comes down. Who has the most at stake when it comes to the 944 spec class?

 

I took John's decision like a man, but when you come on the boards and pontificate that it's close to pro driving, but then that you drive conservatively....I have to laugh.

 

I hope you don't edit my post, because I deserve my say, even if it is in a public forum for all the new 944 guys to read. Don't take liberties with this site and this post. WE all pay our our licensing fees, we all sacrifice our weekends and we all deserve to give feedback!

 

BTW, How is that 924s I sacrificed to Bill working out for you...stripped all the body panels yet? Hope that garage has enough room for 'em...they will be needed if you keep running 4th and 5th.

 

Is the definition of "as the series director for this new 944 class, I've tried to set the driving tone as one of conservatism" less than 5 cases of contact in a season? It seems as though your on record pace to get more contact instead of podiums for 2005!

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I don't run NASA as much as I would like. $ comes into play and when I have to choose?!?!? NASA runs a good event it's just that "contact" is allowed and expected. See the CCR's for proof! In NASA racing room is 3/4 car width. Not 1 car width which means one car has 2 wheels off!! Side to side contact is O.K. per the CCR's. Bump drafting though not specifically O.K. is O.K. since no car is "punted". "Punting" is up to the discrection of the race director! While all of this is legal in NASA it does not display good driving technic or etiquite (sp). The guys who run the NASA events are great and do their best but all the complaints about bumping and passing are legal. I am debating running the next NASA event at WS or running the POC event at the Streets. My only hesitation is at POC I am fairly sure my car will remain intact and at NASA beating TC mat have to involve some side to side contact - which is legal BTW!! I have NASCAR bar on my cage so I should be O.K.

This is NOT ment to flame NASA as I like them but just pointing out a difference in philosophy!!

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Must also keep in mind, Edik was leading the H4 class. Loosing time behind 2 cars in a different class that are fighting for position is a hard thing to sit by and do. Being in the same position Edik was in, I would have done the same thing. I think some are forgetting the difference between a punt and bump.

 

Well that is the wrong attitude. Ok so Edik was leading the his class. Fine there is class battle infront of him and you MUST respect that. Yes you may need to slow to get around them. Such is life.

 

Now you say that you forgetting the difference between a punt and a bump. Yes that difference is that the car stays on the road. If the bumped car spins off then it IS by NASA definitions a punt. Please read section 27.10 in the NASA CCR's. They state even a light tap can be a punt if the driver in front goes off. Hmm...

 

That is why NO CONTACT is much better.

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Wow.......that's a twisted view point, Jason.

Where do I start. I won't edit your post. It might be better for you if I did, though, because it makes you seem kind of silly. Obviously, there's some underlying hostility.

-Yes, you probably would have passed me anyway. No one contested that. The problem was the influence from outside the class. I'm not upset about that. It's just what happened.

- I race hard because I love it. I race close because it's exciting and I'm trying hard to win or finish as high as possible. I do give another driver just enough room to exist on the track because I'm trying to get the best line without driving him off the track.

- Your timing is off on the series of events. I have not been having more contact since Dwain or the other guys have been beating me. I have never had contact with any 944's.

Last year I had contact with a VW Rabbit at Buttonwillow(at least partly my fault because I was overtaking). I also bumped a Laser from behind at Buttonwillow because he missed a shift when we were running nose to tail. This year at the NASA event at Fontana in March, a Honda turned in on me at turn 5. I tried to back out but couldn't get out of the way. I drifted into a tire barrier at Fontana during the Tribute this year in April and had some minor single car damage. I had some side by side contact this June at Tijuana. No fault there as I was well up next to him at the turn in.

As far as our incident at Willow:

I watched the video several times. It's not exactly how I remembered it but that's the beauty of video.

I held just inside of you until I was completely by you. I didn't want to be 6 or 8 feet over to the left because that would compromise my entry into turn 1, right? Once I was completely past you, the passing evolution was over and I controlled the turn and the turn in point. I could choose any line I wanted. There was more room on the outside once I was past you so I took it in order to get a better entry. We both went to brakes and you accidentally punted me. I know you didn't mean to. We were just racing hard and close. I maintain I did nothing wrong, nothing against the rules, nothing unsafe, nothing ungentlemanly. Just hard racing. You can review the fault/no fault passing scenarios in the NASA rule book. I, too, had someone approach me (unsolicited) after the race and ask me (already knowing the answer), "Was that a punt? The only difference between your witnesses and mine was that mine was the race director himself.

You should know 2 things about my racing. I'll always try my hardest and I never give up trying my hardest until the checkered flag flies because you never know what's going to happen to the other guys.

Yes, 944's are a big part of my life right now, but life doesn't depend on how I finish. I'm not even competing for the championship this year. I've only run 2 NASA races this year. It's not my entire living either.

I have never had anyone question my ability to manage this series in an even-handed manner. I've always put the series first and myself second. I've had only one driver express concern about a driver in the series also acting as the Series Director. I can see how the postion might be abused, but it hasn't happened with me yet and there are procedures in place if you ever think it's happening to you. Quite the contrary, I have given so much to this series it isn't funny. In terms of enthusiasm, time, effort, I can't think of any other series being managed like ours. Door prizes? Sponsorship deals? Doing more than I need to with the TOYO TIRE paperwork? Anyway.........I'm true to the class and it's drivers because we have a good thing, not because I'm on some power trip.

-I didn't say NASA was close to pro driving. I said "closer." Then I cited a few examples.

- I haven't used any of the panels from the 924S that you sold to Bill. I thought they were all in too poor condition to be worth my time to strip. The only thing worth salvaging on that hulk was the tranny. The guys at Black Forest are trying to talk me into stripping the fenders anyway, but I don't do bodywork.

-I keep finishing 4th and 5th? I've run 2 weekends with NASA this year. 4 races in total. I can't remember my finish on Sat, but took a strong second on Sunday at Fontana. At Willow, I told everybody ahead of time that I would run on old tires to save money. OLD tires. That's where your "if you keep running 4th and 5th" place finishes are coming from?

You're welcome to your opinions. It just seems that they aren't very well founded.

I'm not mad at ya. You're just seeing one part of the whole equation and coming up with what I believe is an innaccurate answer.

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TC,

I think his point may be one of this: I passed Jim in the qual race on Sunday. I passed him on the straight, well before the corner. But, because he's a mate, a fellower 944'er and a fellow driver on track, I didn't move over on him to get a better line. I took the tighter inside line. That tighter line coupled with something distracting me in the mirror and I got loose, ultimately dropping a wheel off. But, didn't force Jim into any situation where he hit me. I guess on exit also, I got one wheel off, my instant thought was to let it go around rather than tank slap and risk Jim running into me. It's just racing for fun. No need to force other people into situations is perhaps the point?

 

P.D.

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TC....you have done a ton for the group AND were extremely helpful to me when I got started. I don't have hostility toward you or anyone else, but I do have a problem with you saying in one breath that you race consveratively and then in another say that it's almost pro racing. Aren't you "going pro" or "turning pro" btw.

 

Lets just call it what it is....a case of the internet and things in writing taking on different meanings. I am sure in person, we will have differences of opinions. Just like sitting around over a few beers we all needle each other...that's all I am doing. I still contend that your driving is not conservative!

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Here is my take.

Couple Points.

 

Firstly Dylan and I ran hard at Fontana on Sunday. There were many times I could have forced a pass, but did not. Mostly because I never felt I "had the corner". Then end result was I never passed him.

 

We raced hard and close and I don't believe either of us put ourselves in situations where we had to evade each other. I enjoyed that race, but was disapointed that I did not perform better. I did feel like I was a bit faster, but that was not to be. As they say catching a guy is one thing. Passing is another.

 

 

Second.

I do frimly believe that if driver is involved in a number of "incidents" even if none are his "fault" there is something a miss. I believe that most incidents even if you are not "at fault" you are partial responsible for. So that means even if you are the victim being the victim all the time is a source of an issue.

 

Now that is not to say Tim you are a bad driver, but it does seem odd that you have had so many incidents. Sure you can explain them all as "special circumstances", but has something changed in your driving over the last year to make these more common place. Now that competition is stronger are you now pushing your limit even harder and this making more mistakes or taking a bit more risk?

 

I personally am a competitive person and hate to lose. I was quite lucky early on in 944-spec. I had my car and myself dailed in and went on long winning streak. Well things have changed and I am not quite as sharp as before and frankly everyone else got much better. So winning is much harder. In fact my lowest 944-spec finishes ever came at Cal Speedway in March. So given that I need to realize that I still need to drive properly and not take extra risks beyond my skills. My spin in Sunday qualfying was a direct result me pushing too hard and not realizing that I was beyond my skills. We were all lucky that noting resulted from that. Thanks again fellows for being smart and avoiding the loose nut.

 

Because of that my early Saturday exit due to braking error I was much more careful in Sunday's Race. I still raced hard, but was possible more cautious that needed. In any even I was satisifed in the end because I felt I drive safe solid race inspite of my finishing position. What I learned most is that my time at the top is over. I need to work hard to get even a podium spot.

 

I guess maybe that is where some of the guys are coming from. Maybe they think you are pushing too hard trying to keep up. I know you are very competitive and running old tires that you know are past their prime is tough. It may cause you to overdrive and metally justify pushing a bit harder than you'd like(or should) in attempt to will your way to the front.

 

 

PS... We all do that and have done it at times Tim. It is just important to identify it to yourself so you can make a change.

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Here is my take.

Couple Points.

 

Firstly Dylan and I ran hard at Fontana on Sunday. There were many times I could have forced a pass, but did not. Mostly because I never felt I "had the corner". Then end result was I never passed him.

 

We raced hard and close and I don't believe either of us put ourselves in situations where we had to evade each other. I enjoyed that race, but was disapointed that I did not perform better. I did feel like I was a bit faster, but that was not to be. As they say catching a guy is one thing. Passing is another.

 

I agree with all you say Joe. We had a great time at Fontana. You mayy have been a little faster coming into 3? A direct result of having the overdrive 5th gear. I made you work for it a couple times, all I could do with that extra speed the shorter 5th gives. Man I loved it next time out with that puppy. What a difference. But yes, you never made me avoid you. You did all the work from behind.

 

Being passed by a sideways car that you avoid or be hit by, that's not conservative driving. Not naming names, just making a point. Even trying to make a pass on a car and having to back out because they are sideways in front of you trying to stay in front, that's not conservative driving. So yes, as Jason and Joe say. Lets call a spade a spade. We mostly drive to our limits, all the way infact. If we are involved in too many incidents, we need to ask ourselves, what's going on? And maybe dial it back a notch?

 

Keep it real!

 

P.D.

 

p.s. my opinion on bump drafting? It's all fine and dandy until someone goes off and hits a wall. If I knew it would and could never happen, I'd be all for it! I would encourage it. But I know as soon as a do, someone will get punted into the wall at 120 and that will suck for everyone.

 

As for the bump in the initial post/video, ahh, what ever. It turned out ok this time. But like a said, if Jason had spun off and hit something, it would not be so cool so, what are you to do?

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TC,

 

As you know, I am the person that make the comment about it being strange that the Race Director races against me in my series.... I still can't imagine this happens in any other sport... Can you imagine suiting up for a soccer game and having the Referee show up wearing the opponents uniform?

 

I was disappointed in the turn of events, regarding the incident with Jason. The incident happened, there were at least 5 eye witnesses besides you two. I was behind, there was an experienced Porsche racer sitting in the turn one grandstands, and one other non-racer sitting there also. Plenty of opinions... After the race, Ryan walked up to TC and said, "Was that a punt?" TC said with a VERY emphatic tone....YES!!.

 

Here is my concern, if ANYONE else was involved other than TImmee, it would have been handled differently. These "others" by the way, saw the event differently than TC. But Jason gets DQ'd and Tim does not.... What if they were both running for points in the Championship?

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Well that is the wrong attitude. Ok so Edik was leading the his class. Fine there is class battle infront of him and you MUST respect that. Yes you may need to slow to get around them. Such is life.

 

Now you say that you forgetting the difference between a punt and a bump. Yes that difference is that the car stays on the road. If the bumped car spins off then it IS by NASA definitions a punt. Please read section 27.10 in the NASA CCR's. They state even a light tap can be a punt if the driver in front goes off. Hmm...

 

That is why NO CONTACT is much better.

 

Edik did slow, not as much as you think he should of though. You say I have the wrong attitude, but your basing that on your opinion that "bumping" is wrong. That is "your" opinion, not the opinion of everyone else. Not everyone would agree that a "bump" is "contact". I would venture out and say "most" racers think bumping is part of racing. Most would also agree that it may cause problems if done all the time.

 

You are very much entitled to your opinion as I am to mine. I don't think bump drafting is wrong, and you can feel free to bump me by my fellow competitor anytime in the near future. If you don't want people to ever bump you, maybe you should think about sticking to the freeway.

 

Choosing to bump draft someone is no different than choosing to pass someone. If something goes wrong, it's probably gonna be your fault. You need to be smart in the way it's used just like a pass. Giving someone a 2mph push is no more dangerous than initiating a pass into turn 1 as long as it's done safely and correctly.

 

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If you don't want people to ever bump you, maybe you should think about sticking to the freeway.

 

Are you serious? The track is MUCH safer than the freeway!!!! I'd much rather run around at 120 with you maniacs than most of the people on the 405 at 65!

 

P.Dilly.

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Yeah me too. Today on the 134 a lady in a SUV crossed 3 lanes and almost went into me.

 

If you don't want people to ever bump you, maybe you should think about sticking to the freeway.

 

Are you serious? The track is MUCH safer than the freeway!!!! I'd much rather run around at 120 with you maniacs than most of the people on the 405 at 65!

 

P.Dilly.

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I hear you guys but disagree that I'm driving more aggressively than last year. As I said, I haven't had any contact with a 944 yet. Yes, we get sideways in turns sometimes, and I'm always ready to move over a little.

 

Joe, you spun on Sun Morning because you went way too far to the inside. You'd have to slow down to 20 mph to take the line you did. That's precisely why I get JUST to the inside of the car I'm passing.

I wasn't pushing too hard on old tires at Willow last time. I knew I had no hope of winning. I was just trying to manage old tires and finish as high as possible.

 

It wasn't Ryan who came up to me. It was John Lindsey. And maybe we should review the video again? I don't think there was any favoritism going on there. For the record, I told John I'd be happy just getting my position back. I didn't want Jason DQ'd. John went by the rules. Jim, keep in mind that I don't make calls regarding incidents on the track. The Race Director does.

We drivers establish ourselves within our community. We develop reputations for being good or bad drivers; for making good or bad decisions. I invite you drivers to review each case of contact that I've had. I'm confident that you'll come to the conclusion that I'm not out of control, overly aggressive, or even trying too hard.

I'm just driving hard like the other guys. I take control of a turn that is rightfully mine, but I WILL try to back out to avoid contact if the other guy doesn't agree, if it's at all possible.

That's what I mean by conservative. Making decisions about passing that will keep you from having contact. Not just getting sideways while you're in the lead. Of course, I'm trusting that the other driver knows the rules and knows when he's been beat to the corner!

Can't wait to kick all your a$$es at Willow.........

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Ok Timmay Ecclestone, if I may vent my view.

I think it be great if you as class director communicate with your fellow class directors that we share the track with, that the 944 guys are racing only 944 guys and that it is pointless, annoying, rude, disrespectful, unsportsmanlike to interfere in a class battle, to bump someone not in your class and to not move over when a class battle is going on behind you. I remember at the last driver meeting at Willow you spoke up regarding some of this but it's hard to get the message across in that noisy cafeteria. Maybe try to emphasize the message even more next time.

We only share the track with other classes because of logistics and in a perfect world they should never be the reason for the results.

 

Keep up the good work Tim and remember never to remove your diplomatic suit and that your every move is magnified because of your position.

 

Will I see any fellow 944 gents at Willow on Friday? I'll be there testing my new windshield wipers.

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Couple points,

 

1) I DO THINK BUMP DRAFTING IS WRONG. Simply I think is heavy handed NASCAR style of red neck racing used by folks that can do things the right right way. That is my view point and it WILL NOT CHANGE.

 

I believe in racing hard, but not in making contact. I feel contact is sign of low class driving and NOT being a professional. To me it is a sign of some snot nosed rookie trying to act like he some pro.

 

 

Like I said to Edik, If you want to bump other cars fine, But please don't bump the red and white #94 944. If you hit me fine, but don't pretend that it was "little bump". Nope you hit me period.

 

 

 

Tim,

My spin a Cal Speedway was a direct result of not being to tight. I was a result of me being pig headed and trying to keep you back of me. I had a run on another 944 in the draft and had him easily passed or at least set-up. Then you come flying in behind me with enough momentum to pass me. I make the decision to keep you back there, by simply not giveing you and room to get along side of me. Of course the result was braking too deep and too late being on the side. If I had just said "Timmy has me beat" and let you through... Well I would not have endangered my self and those around me. While I may have "run out of talent" I also ran out of brains long before that.

 

Like I said I got LUCKY that you guys avoided me and I got to learn from that mistake the "easy way" rather than the hard way. I really like to win, but I DO NOT want the reputation as a bonehead so when something like that happens I need to be on my best behavior after it and learn WHY I did it so as to not do it again.

 

With the exception of the close call with the Honda where I HAD to take evasive action I kept my nose clean in race group even if I was a little tentative early.

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I respect a person that can own up to their mistakes Joe. Nice! Class act.

 

On that note, I want to own up to stealing Jim's underwear at that event. They were just so damn sexy. Leopard skin print G-string, will frilly lace around the edges. Of course the lace actually itches so they look better than they feel on but, I just feel so sexy when I wear them. I just wanted to own up to that!

 

P.D.

 

p.s. I'm not joking about the owning up. I think more people in life, in general need to take responsibility for what they do. Not related to anything here, just an observation of the tendancy for people to blame everyone else.

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You don't want them now Jim, I was wearing them when I spun off in front off you at Willow that last qual race. There um, a little soiled if you know what I mean?

 

Back by popular demand, Conservative passing 101. Rigth click and save to you computer so it's not downloaded a million times, please. http://www.axecess.com.au/video/conservativedriving101.wmv

 

P.D.

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Interesting conversation here. It went from bumping to jabbing in short order.

 

I've never raced with NASA, yet. It sounds like a great club and most people have a good time. I'm still working on the spec car so I can run with you guys. I don't think bumping is a good idea unless the driver in front signals with a clearly defined and understood hand motion to the driver in the rear. Jim, I'm sure you've used the tap on the back of the helmet for a bump in your kart racing. My son does it all the time when trying to draft past a competitor.

 

Not comparing karting to full size car racing just stating the fact that when both parties are aware of the bump it's cool. Speed differentials are typically minimal and the safety factor is relatively high when done at the right place on the track. Just a thought on how to play the bump to both driver's advantage in a safe manner.

 

Timmee, keep up the good work!! You're the coolest series director, racer, out of control on bald tires driver I've ever known! Actually, you're the only one I've ever known!?

 

Just kidding. I really appreciate the work you put into this series on the local as well as NASA levels. The series benefits with an out front guy with a passion like you have.

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